How the Newtown massacre became a Mind-Control event

rockwood wrote:franco b, your last couple of posts have been right on the money

^^ What he said.

<unnecessary comment about deleted post removed>

I agree that monopoly is bad. However, inhumane treatment of labor is always unacceptable, no matter the reason. You talk about employers as though they are an individual person who must do whatever is necessary to survive at the expense of others misery.

I also noticed that you talk of the benefits of what organized labor accomplished in the past tense. Unions are as necessary now as ever. As for featherbedding. There are always two parties at the negotiating table. If the company can't afford to give, they don't have to. And labor gave up a lot in the recent past.

As for public sector labor. They may be consumers of wealth, but they work just like everyone else. People want the services they provide, but it pisses them of that they have to pay for it with their tax dollars.

It pisses me off that I have to pay for huge school sports programs with my tax dollars. But paying the janitor a decent wage don't

inhotwater wrote: There are always two parties at the negotiating table. If the company can't afford to give, they don't have to.

Correction. There are three people at the table. The government is there to force the employer to "negotiate" with the union. This gives the unions an unfair advantage at the bargaining table. In the end, the companies only recourse is to endure a long and costly strike such as Brown & Sharpe or close the doors and move out of the country such as my former employer.

inhotwater wrote:As for public sector labor. They may be consumers of wealth, but they work just like everyone else. People want the services they provide, but it pisses them of that they have to pay for it with their tax dollars.

It pisses me off that I have to pay for huge school sports programs with my tax dollars. But paying the janitor a decent wage don't

What if I DON'T want the services government "provides"? Can I be exempt from taxes? Shouldn't I be pissed when someone sticks a gun in my ribs and takes my wallet?

inhotwater wrote:As for public sector labor. They may be consumers of wealth, but they work just like everyone else. People want the services they provide, but it pisses them of that they have to pay for it with their tax dollars.

It pisses me off that I have to pay for huge school sports programs with my tax dollars. But paying the janitor a decent wage don't

What if I DON'T want the services government "provides"? Can I be exempt from taxes? Shouldn't I be pissed when someone sticks a gun in my ribs and takes my wallet?[/quote]

Sure you can be exempt and not pay taxes. You just can't do it and still live in the same place and receive residual services. But, you already know that. Belize anybody?

inhotwater wrote: And labor gave up a lot in the recent past.

I notice that you use the term labor when you mean organized labor which is only a small minority of the labor force. The working people of this country far outnumber those in unions.

How about restrictive hiring practices in father and son unions and the construction trades? They are just as bad as the evil employers in their quest for monopoly. When does bargaining become extortion? Do the unions worry that the companies they work for might be losing money? What about the resistance to modern more efficient methods that might cost jobs but in the long haul benefits everyone by increases in productivity which in turn makes possible higher wages? Unions are the Luddites of today. Like it or not unions are still subject to market forces and their greed and selfishness only hold back progress.

Concerning public unions why should they be paid about one third or more than comparable jobs in the private sector? It used to be that those working for government made one third less but felt the job security and pension was worth it. Aren't you concerned that we are approaching the point where one half the population is supporting the other half?

I think your right Richard. It's a fine line on both sides as to when one or the other is going overboard. There have been times in history for both sides to make their respective points for existence. The problem is when one has to much power or control over the other and the balance doesn't work any longer.

franco b wrote: When does bargaining become extortion?

When government puts its thumb on the scale in favor of the union.

franco b wrote:

inhotwater wrote: And labor gave up a lot in the recent past.

I notice that you use the term labor when you mean organized labor which is only a small minority of the labor force. The working people of this country far outnumber those in unions.

How about restrictive hiring practices in father and son unions and the construction trades? They are just as bad as the evil employers in their quest for monopoly. When does bargaining become extortion? Do the unions worry that the companies they work for might be losing money? What about the resistance to modern more efficient methods that might cost jobs but in the long haul benefits everyone by increases in productivity which in turn makes possible higher wages? Unions are the Luddites of today. Like it or not unions are still subject to market forces and their greed and selfishness only hold back progress.

Concerning public unions why should they be paid about one third or more than comparable jobs in the private sector? It used to be that those working for government made one third less but felt the job security and pension was worth it. Aren't you concerned that we are approaching the point where one half the population is supporting the other half?

Unions are a minority of the workforce because we already fought the big fights for the rest of you. Everyone takes for granted the benefits and working conditions you all enjoy today. If you think they were given without a fight you're wrong.Some poor slob walked the street without pay so you could have paid breaks and lunches, healthy work environments, insurance, pensions, vacations,1.5x over 40 hours, weekends. None of which were given out of the goodness of the business communities heart. People died for these things.

As for your second paragraph, I personally have been involved in all of our contract negotiations over the last 17 years and have always kept a balance that would be good for our membership and provide flexibility to our employer to operate in a profitable way. To the point that they moved product lines from China in some cases. I as president of our local have designed and built machinery that has eliminated man hours, all while the company accquired new businesses and product lines. So don't generalize and say we're all extorsionists. We have never been on strike. Never. Luddities? I beg to differ. We are the only voice for workng Americans in the political arena. A voice that the
business community through chambers of commerce lobbyists, and palm greased republican legislators is trying to silence.

I have to agree with a good bit of what you said about public sector unions. We would never dream of asking for some of the rediculous things like caddillac health care plans for employee and spouse for both lives. The pension liabilities and benefits are burdensom also.

SteveZee wrote:Sure you can be exempt and not pay taxes. You just can't do it and still live in the same place and receive residual services. But, you already know that. Belize anybody?

Still using the old "who will build the roads" argument?

Who built the roads before the Federal highway system?

No one on earth could build public transportation routes! It's IMPOSSIBLE!

Ooops, it's not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador_Bridge

The Ambassador Bridge is a suspension bridge that connects Detroit, Michigan, in the United States, with Windsor, Ontario, in Canada. It is the busiest international border crossing in North America in terms of trade volume: more than 25 percent of all merchandise trade between the United States and Canada crosses the bridge.

The bridge is owned by Grosse Pointe billionaire Manuel "Matty" Moroun through the Detroit International Bridge Company in the US and the Canadian Transit Company in Canada, and at one time it was publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange

Some good points, but you are also generalizing by inferring that enlightened union leadership is the norm.

I don't think there is any question that unions were at the forefront in the demands for better working conditions and pay; that it was the prime mover with all the thuggery and violence (on both sides) is open to question. To deny that there were no enlightened employers and politicians of conservative bent and claim all the credit is also wrong. You can't get blood out of a stone and until technology and market conditions were aligned no progress was possible. The evolution of better worker conditions in Japan and now in China are the result of technology, not unions. Soviet Russia had lots of unions. Britain was on the verge of collapse because of unions.

Yes, unions can be a good thing because it allows the voice of the worker to be a lot louder and through its leaders a lot saner (sometimes). The market though will still dictate what is possible and when that is violated the jobs go away.

As a conservative it is painful to use terms like worker and collective because to me everything is about the individual and the conditions that are necessary for that individual to reach full potential. Those terms turn thinking away from the uniqueness and individuality of each person. One size does not fit all. Both our biological and economic progress are the result of individual not collective action. This is what our founding document, The Declaration stresses.

inhotwater wrote:Everyone takes for granted the benefits and working conditions you all enjoy today. If you think they were given without a fight you're wrong.Some poor slob walked the street without pay so you could have paid breaks and lunches, healthy work environments, insurance, pensions, vacations,1.5x over 40 hours, weekends.

Who the hell still has a 40 hour workweek? Weekends off? Pension??? A VACATION ???? HA! I never had a job that easy in my 25 years of employment. Those days are long since gone. Try again.

Eddie Rickenbacker, when he was running Eastern Airlines, actually invited the union into the company because while talking to his employees, he found that they wanted collective bargaining.

For a long time, Eastern was the only profitable airline NOT taking government subsidies.

Then the government put it's thumb on the scale in favor of the unions and Eastern doesn't exist anymore.

see how well that works? It's not the UNION that is the problem. It is the unfair advantage they enjoy due to government interference.

I do find it hard to believe that Linesville PA and Lebanon PA are 300 miles apart

SMITTY wrote:

inhotwater wrote:Everyone takes for granted the benefits and working conditions you all enjoy today. If you think they were given without a fight you're wrong.Some poor slob walked the street without pay so you could have paid breaks and lunches, healthy work environments, insurance, pensions, vacations,1.5x over 40 hours, weekends.

Who the hell still has a 40 hour workweek? Weekends off? Pension??? A VACATION ???? HA! I never had a job that easy in my 25 years of employment. Those days are long since gone. Try again.

Are you telling me that you had none of the benefits I mentioned? Never a vacation? Never 1.5 times pay over 40 hours? No breaks? No Health insurance? Just a miserable grueling job with a loaf of bread for wages, filled with unsafe working conditions with the pusher boss kicking you to go faster!!!! I pity you man. Can I come help you guys? There's a better way.

And the union gave us all this 5 .. 10 years ago??

They served their purpose at one time. Today, they are just a strong-arm of the democrat party. Big, bloated and out of control, just like the government that protects them.