In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

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In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:42 pm

... modern citizens of the very USA which they gave to us insist upon it being a Democracy?
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:42 pm

lsayre wrote:... modern citizens of the very USA which they gave to us insist upon it being a Democracy?


say huh :help:
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:55 pm

http://utahlinks.org/learn/docs/Bradley_Republic.pdf

At the close of the Constitutional Convention on September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin left the hall in Philadelphia, he was asked, “What kind of government have you given us, Dr. Franklin?” He replied: “A republic, if you can keep it.”
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:55 pm

lsayre wrote:... modern citizens of the very USA which they gave to us insist upon it being a Democracy?


Because their government funded school told them that the USA makes the world "safe for democracy".
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:14 pm

The Constitution the Founders gave us:
Called for Senators to be appointed by State Legislatures.
Called for Electors appointed by State Legislatures to elect our President.
Called for the people to vote only for their Representatives in the House.

There is no mention of Democracy in the Declaration of Independence or in the Constitution.
lsayre
 
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:11 am

Larry,
Civics lesson please. What your talking about sounds intriguing but Im not understanding what your driving at. Are you proposing some sort of fundamental changes? If so what are they,and I agree a change is sorely needed. Something to get 90% of the people to participate and a way clarify what you are voting for when you do. Its too big for me to get my head around at this point. :? More please.....

Waldo
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:29 pm

I think the main point is that someone in another thread said we lived in a democracy. :)

The larger point is that "words mean things" and if you don't know the definitions, then you miss the point.

A "state" at the time of the founding was understood to be a "country". We were, under the original Articles of CONfederation a group of united States(small 'u', big 'S')

And I capitalize "CON" because a "confederation" is a group of loosely related states. The European Union is a confederation. The "European Central Union" cannot reach out from Brussels and touch an individual in Greece or Spain or France for instance.

A "Federation"(no 'con') is a group of state with a strong central government which can reach out and touch an individual anywhere in it's jurisdiction. The United States(big 'U', big 'S') is a "Federation" under the Constitution because the Federalists won the fight against the anti Federalists.

The 9a and 10A were supposed to limit that but you see how well that worked.

If the 10A was in force, the South should have had reserved the right to secede and form their "CONfederation" but Lincoln made sure they understood that that wasn't going to happen.

In a "democracy", it's "one man, one vote" and you only need 50%+1 to make things happen. In a republic, the people elect their representatives to do their voting for them.

The "Pledge of Allegiance" says "to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands" yet we've somehow been duped into saying we live in a "democracy" which couldn't be further from the truth.
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:53 pm

So in the central Euro union each member state has their own independent government and they are only linked by a currency? And does that make them a republic? Is there a faction in this country that believes we should be like that? And are they a republic. Im still somewhat confused and embarrassed I never knew any of this. Though my high school history teacher was a real dolt and was just putting in his time till retirement.

Thanx in advance

Waldo
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:01 pm

waldo lemieux wrote:So in the central Euro union each member state has their own independent government and they are only linked by a currency? And does that make them a republic? Is there a faction in this country that believes we should be like that? And are they a republic. Im still somewhat confused and embarrassed I never knew any of this. Though my high school history teacher was a real dolt and was just putting in his time till retirement.

Thanx in advance

Waldo


I'm with you. I never really understood any of it either. This thread may prove very enlightening and educational provided we can keep it civil and without arguments. Let's discuss what a government is and keep the political debates and arguments out of it, shall we. :)
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:12 pm

waldo lemieux wrote:So in the central Euro union each member state has their own independent government and they are only linked by a currency? And does that make them a republic? Is there a faction in this country that believes we should be like that? And are they a republic. Im still somewhat confused and embarrassed I never knew any of this. Though my high school history teacher was a real dolt and was just putting in his time till retirement.

Thanx in advance

Waldo


Yes, member states in the EU have their own government in the country, and the country sends it's own representative to Brussels. Each state takes turns on a rotating basis of who is the "head" of the EU.

It starts to get a bit convoluted and that's on of the reasons the FF chucked the Articles of Confederation for the Constitution. They wanted a more permanent, stronger government, but many of the people didn't. That's how RI became the "Thirteenth State" because we refused to ratify the Constitution until it included the Bill of Rights, of which the 9A and 10A were a major part in selling the idea of a Federation to the people.

Most everyone has heard of "The Federalist Papers" which were the arguments FOR the Constitution. Almost no one has heard of the "Anti Federalist Papers" which were the reasons why some people DIDN'T want to join a federation.

If you read them, you'll be surprised at how accurate some of them were.

http://www.constitution.org/afp/afp.htm

Here's one I just picked at random and it foretells all the arguments we've had since before the ink was dry.

http://www.constitution.org/afp/brutus01.txt
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Re: In light of the Founders total disdain of it, why do we ...

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:35 pm

waldo lemieux wrote:Larry,
Civics lesson please. What your talking about sounds intriguing but Im not understanding what your driving at. Are you proposing some sort of fundamental changes? If so what are they,and I agree a change is sorely needed. Something to get 90% of the people to participate and a way clarify what you are voting for when you do. Its too big for me to get my head around at this point. :? More please.....

Waldo


Yes, very fundamental changes. Nothing less than returning to the functional structure of government that our Founders gave to us.

The original "balance of power" (back when it was actually balanced) was between the state (small 's', via the representation of its President and its Judicial system), The States (capital 'S, via the representation of their Senators'), and the People (via the representation of their elected Representatives).

The current balance of power is vested in the state, the state, and the state (although we like to think it is vested in the people, the people, and the people now that "we the people" elect everyone up and down the line, and the state clearly likes us to think that way, and they promote the rigged two party system to keep us thinking that the people vest all power). The States are state puppet figments of a past when they had real authority and purpose. The Judicial system is a figment of the past as well, as it is presently a puppet of the state. The only aspect that does not yet realize that it is a puppet of the state is the people. As I stated earlier, a people who do not realize they are manipulated puppet serfs are more productive to the ends of the powers that do realize it.
lsayre
 
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