My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:08 pm

CoaLen wrote:
coalkirk
LOL. If I wanted to relocate my squirrels, it would be a full time job. As I look out my front window right now, there are at least a dozen on the lawn. I've got a bunch of huge oaks. They thrive on the acorns. Over the years I have watched their population rise and fall with the acorn crop. Some years there are not very many acorns and some years it's tough to walk on the lawn. Last couple years were good acorn years so we are up to our ass in squirrels.


dcrane,
You're in the relocating business. Maybe you could gather up the critters some night and relocate 'em to coalkirks front yard. From the sounds of it, they would blend right in. toothy


Heck yeah, bring them on over. The more the merrier. I have a soft spot for animals. I'm not a hunter. I don't object to others hunting as long as they are eating what they kill. But to just kill an animal for sport or fun does not appeal to me. I think it goes back to when I was little and got a BB gun for Christmas. My sister-in-law dared me to shoot a bird in a tree above me so I did. This sparrow fell out of the tree and landed right in front of me and bled out. I felt horrible. Haven't shot an animal since. Believe when I say if someone broke into my house and was a threat, I'd drop them with no remorse. But not an innocent animal. When things get tough in winter, I feed the squirrels peanuts. :oops:
coalkirk
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:39 pm

Yes, and your views are held by millions of perfectly decent people as I think you are though it is not the gray but the black and white that is the problem.

The attitude of our Native Americans I think was ideal. They had to kill but it was with respect and with the knowledge that they also were part of that animal world and were kin to those animals in spirit. There was not the casualness that to me borders on barbarism. They were far ahead of us.

Human beings were never born with sets of deadly weapons such as a Lion or Grizzly has and as a result never developed the inhibitions against using them that those animals did. We probably spent most of our years as prey rather than predators. When we did acquire them we lacked inhibition and that lack is pretty apparent in world history. We are more like rabbits whose fights with one another are more deadly than lions.

I know that the story of man and animals is one of tragedy, even among those we love and call pets as any visit to a humane society will confirm.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: SteveZee On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:58 am

franco b wrote:Yes, and your views are held by millions of perfectly decent people as I think you are though it is not the gray but the black and white that is the problem.

The attitude of our Native Americans I think was ideal. They had to kill but it was with respect and with the knowledge that they also were part of that animal world and were kin to those animals in spirit. There was not the casualness that to me borders on barbarism. They were far ahead of us.

Human beings were never born with sets of deadly weapons such as a Lion or Grizzly has and as a result never developed the inhibitions against using them that those animals did. We probably spent most of our years as prey rather than predators. When we did acquire them we lacked inhibition and that lack is pretty apparent in world history. We are more like rabbits whose fights with one another are more deadly than lions.

I know that the story of man and animals is one of tragedy, even among those we love and call pets as any visit to a humane society will confirm.


Our brain is the deadly weapon we were born with Richard. Some more then others per usual. I too can appreciate the Native American attitude (to hunting food). Like the rest of us, when it came to other's of the same species, they could dole out some "inhuman" tortures during battles/wars/raids/warnings.
SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range


Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: KLook On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:30 am

I won't disagree with some of that really. But shooting prairie dogs for sport when they have to be controlled somehow is not inhumane or cruel or evil. Neither is shooting squirrels. I shot things when I had a bb gun that made me sad, and that is part of the learning process.
You think animals with claws and teeth have ethics?? That is a wacko view. Wolves are known to kill for fun, but listen to some nature documentary and you would think they say a prayer before getting lunch. Animals are driven by FOOD and SEX. Period They have no ethics or morals. If they are hungry enough, they will try to eat you.
The native Americans celebrated their prey because they correctly realized that their survival hinged on the prey. Just like any predator population, not some mystical juju. When the animals they could kill with primitive weapons were scarce, so were they. We have long been a society that has unhinged ourselves from the predator/prey ratio because of agriculture. And it has bred generations of people that do not understand the role of animals in society outside of pets that they elevate to near human status or beyond. This is the sickness as it is unnatural and will make these people unable to survive with out society to produce food and do the dirty work somewhere they cant see it. And now we see them trying to shut down all animal uses and promoting a Vegan lifestyle for everyone.
I personally see this evolution in thinking to go hand in hand with the evolution in government that we are experiencing. The new intellectual elite reject all things that went before to show that times have changed and we (they) are more intelligent or enlightened. Evolve they say. So long as other peoples money does not run out and agriculture keeps producing tofu, they will be fine. But as animals we are subject to the same basic laws in the end and nature will dominate nurture.

Kevin
KLook
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: KLook On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:32 am

I will amend one part. I have shot animals with larger more powerful guns and not done my part in making a humane kill. It happens and you have to deal with it. I would think anyone that does not feel sorry for causing unnecessary suffering to be sick.

Kevin
KLook
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:35 am

SteveZee wrote:Our brain is the deadly weapon we were born with Richard. Some more then others per usual. I too can appreciate the Native American attitude (to hunting food). Like the rest of us, when it came to other's of the same species, they could dole out some "inhuman" tortures during battles/wars/raids/warnings.

As I said we are like rabbits that never evolved inhibitions in fights against their own kind.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: SteveZee On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:45 am

KLook wrote:I won't disagree with some of that really. But shooting prairie dogs for sport when they have to be controlled somehow is not inhumane or cruel or evil. Neither is shooting squirrels. I shot things when I had a bb gun that made me sad, and that is part of the learning process.
You think animals with claws and teeth have ethics?? That is a wacko view. Wolves are known to kill for fun, but listen to some nature documentary and you would think they say a prayer before getting lunch. Animals are driven by FOOD and SEX. Period They have no ethics or morals. If they are hungry enough, they will try to eat you.
The native Americans celebrated their prey because they correctly realized that their survival hinged on the prey. Just like any predator population, not some mystical juju. When the animals they could kill with primitive weapons were scarce, so were they. We have long been a society that has unhinged ourselves from the predator/prey ratio because of agriculture. And it has bred generations of people that do not understand the role of animals in society outside of pets that they elevate to near human status or beyond. This is the sickness as it is unnatural and will make these people unable to survive with out society to produce food and do the dirty work somewhere they cant see it. And now we see them trying to shut down all animal uses and promoting a Vegan lifestyle for everyone.
I personally see this evolution in thinking to go hand in hand with the evolution in government that we are experiencing. The new intellectual elite reject all things that went before to show that times have changed and we (they) are more intelligent or enlightened. Evolve they say. So long as other peoples money does not run out and agriculture keeps producing tofu, they will be fine. But as animals we are subject to the same basic laws in the end and nature will dominate nurture.

Kevin


That is true. We are animals and we will and do dominate as long as we are able. Whether that is right or wrong or ethical or not is a matter of allot of differing opinions. The very fact that we can even process those thoughts/opinions is probably where our big brain comes into play and what makes us stand out. We probably got to the top of the food chain by using that brain in a ruthless, remorseless manner. There just wasn't any room for any other thoughts when survival was our priority. Things began to change as we civilized in societies. There, humans had more time on their hands because of larger food surplus and supply. This allowed us to explore education and alternate life styles. I look at it like religions. I don't care what you do, practice, or believe in as long as it doesn't infringe on my or others lifestyles or beliefs etc....Simplistic but that's all I really need.

We do in fact elevate animals as pets. I'm as guilty as anyone of loving my "pets". Why do we do that? Is it because they are so much more transparent than humans? Not allot of malice or deception in the ones we have 'domesticated". They are driven by instinct and are pretty much hard wired to behaviors. There's a bit of innocence to that that appeals to me anyway and I guess that's a part of it.
SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range

Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:48 pm

KLook wrote:But as animals we are subject to the same basic laws in the end and nature will dominate nurture.

I think that is a true statement and confirms my view regarding our kinship with animals. It also denies the godlike status that humans pretend to have. It also contradicts much of what you wrote prior to that statement.

That animals have systems of morality has been confirmed in many studies. Wolves killing for fun is very much like mob mentality in humans. It is not the norm. We get along so well with the wolves we keep as pets ( as dogs) because their sense of morality is so close to our own. Being a different species there is not the hostility humans feel toward other humans not of their group. Morality is just another name for rules of behavior without which no species can survive.

Native Americans did have a mystical juju or spirituality. I don't think they made an environmental study as you imply, but rather recognized the pervasiveness of the forces of nature. A theology confirmed by what they saw around them and which left them unprepared when confronted with Europeans who lacked that basic understanding. Franklin reported that the chiefs he met in Albany thought white men were crazy. He also expressed his admiration of them.

Certainly animals are driven by food and sex as are humans.

Taking an anthropomorphic view of animals which is the ascribing of human traits to them is a no no in biology because it conflicts with our elevated status and denies our animal origins despite the millions and millions who see the very obvious human attributes in them and our kinship with them. Modern day theology or current mythology prefers ignorance to acting on what evolutionary and ethological studies has to tell us regarding human behavior. Maybe they are right since nature will out anyway.
franco b
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:52 pm

Flyer5
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:00 pm

SteveZee wrote:We do in fact elevate animals as pets. I'm as guilty as anyone of loving my "pets". Why do we do that? Is it because they are so much more transparent than humans? Not allot of malice or deception in the ones we have 'domesticated". They are driven by instinct and are pretty much hard wired to behaviors. There's a bit of innocence to that that appeals to me anyway and I guess that's a part of it.

Why guilt? You experience an emotional response to animals that is common in large part to all human populations that I am aware of. Then you justify that emotion intellectually when in fact you are just as hard wired to that emotional reaction as the animal you love. As I am too. There is only emotional justification and that is, it gives you pleasure and makes you feel good. You claim an animal heritage yet deny it in effect at the same time by evoking thought which is only there to satisfy preexisting emotion.

For that emotion to have become so strong and so common to all humans it must have carried with it a very strong advantage in the survival of early humans, very possibly the key attribute.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:38 pm

Flyer5 wrote:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c7_1285486220

Funny

I more admired the courage of the young man who did not regard animal baiting as a sport.

What are those long lances for?
franco b
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: KLook On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:06 pm

I completely disagree with the notion that animals have morals or ethics. Everything in the pack, using wolves again, is for hierarchy and rights to breed and eat first and most. It is a ruthless system ruled by natural law where the strongest and only the strongest will rule. Obama is trying it now. To equate cats and dogs that have been inbred and cross bred for centuries to make them more "anything" man desires is hardly proof about their intelligence. The ones that bit you or looked ugly were killed. Early on the hunting breeds and defense dogs were the only reason to breed. Have you ever been around an almost full blooded wolf/dog? If I had a neighbor that had one, the very first time it got loose it would die. Legally. If you want some Ivy league hippy chick with dirty sweatpants and mismatched socks who eats garlic and local herbs to have a 180 lb. animals that can stand flat footed and jump over an 8 ft. chain link fence and pick up an 100 lb. bag and just lug in off or pull its 8ft x 8ft "dog house" down the road like a styrofoam block, good for you. I have great respect for them and want a large gun and daylight when I meet them. I am only 5'7" and a large male will look basically right in the middle of my chest and weigh as much as I do. They are as deadly and unpredictable as these chimps that are allowed to be owned. They are not "noble". They are an upper food chain predator and very good at what they do. I'll let you talk nice to them and explain why you wouldnt make a good lunch. And you may get the chance if they release them into Maine, they are going to chase the easy prey of the deer herds in southern New England Once they eat the few deer and moose Maine has. Or will they use birth control and just hang out in Baxter State Park, soon to be Obama National Wilderness Area?

Kevin
KLook
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:26 pm

Actually, wolves are a VERY noble species and have no qualms in being exactly what they are, where as man on the other hand tends to hide behind the false aura of INTELLIGENCE :twisted: toothy How's that workin?
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:37 pm

freetown fred wrote:Actually, wolves are a VERY noble species and have no qualms in being exactly what they are, where as man on the other hand tends to hide behind the false aura of INTELLIGENCE :twisted: toothy How's that workin?



The wolves are the intelligent ones?
Flyer5
 
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Re: My squirrels are on steriods or something ?

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:02 pm

Left to their own devices---you betcha. You're not really thinkin that man is are you?
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