Cold weather exposes issues!

Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:45 pm

Like many folks experiencing the cold weather, a couple things came too lite. Stove is drafting very hard, and basement is cooler than last week even though the stove is putting out more. The damn head is going crazy trying to figure this out. Look at the photo I posted and you will see the stove pipe entering the flue above the fireplace. I noticed when I went down stairs to have a smoke and opened the brass doors to the fireplace and the damper to the fireplace the draft according to the manometer would settle back to -.04...-.06 and the baro. settled back to bouncing and not doing a george jetson. So I thought I would install a mpd between the stove and baro when the weather allows. The second "God Smack" moment, when I took the photo I was standing with my back against block wall with a basement window above my head and this gave me a thought or actually question or a damn idea, can I install an outside air supply in my basement window and vent it directly to the front of my baro. with whatever material I see fit, so the baro is pulling fresh outside air that will be somewhat warmed by the 10 feet of alluminum pipe there for keeping the warm room air in my basement?
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michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:03 pm

michaelanthony wrote:can I install an outside air supply in my basement window and vent it directly to the front of my baro ... so the baro is pulling fresh outside air?

NO! This question is asked once or twice a year, and every time I have to figure out again WHY the answer is no, it makes my brain hurt. :sick: So go find one of the other threads where it is asked and explained, and I'll go to bed without giving myself a headache. :lol: The answer is still NO.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:08 pm

Oh, all right, I just remembered the easiest way to explain it. Let's say your basement window faces north, and there is a strong wind blowing from the north. So, high pressure air at the window, which you are piping directly into your baro, thereby pressurizing your chimney and the inside of your stove and blowing the products of combustion out of the stove and into your lungs. That's worst case. But even with no wind, similar principles apply, you are screwing up the chimney pressure relative to the stove and room pressure, and your chimney won't work right.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane


Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Rigar On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:09 pm

No...
Its no because...
you need the baro to pull air from the same environment that the appliance is in.PERIOD
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:17 pm

rberq wrote:Oh, all right, I just remembered the easiest way to explain it. Let's say your basement window faces north, and there is a strong wind blowing from the north. So, high pressure air at the window, which you are piping directly into your baro, thereby pressurizing your chimney and the inside of your stove and blowing the products of combustion out of the stove and into your lungs. That's worst case. But even with no wind, similar principles apply, you are screwing up the chimney pressure relative to the stove and room pressure, and your chimney won't work right.
rberq wrote:
michaelanthony wrote:can I install an outside air supply in my basement window and vent it directly to the front of my baro ... so the baro is pulling fresh outside air?

NO! This question is asked once or twice a year, and every time I have to figure out again WHY the answer is no, it makes my brain hurt. :sick: So go find one of the other threads where it is asked and explained, and I'll go to bed without giving myself a headache. :lol: The answer is still NO.

Ok..light dawns on marblehead!! This is only a test in case of an actual emergency....that is why I asked and thank you for your responses. You also rigar.
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Rigar On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:20 pm

Cont...
By environment i mean "atmospheric environment"...
...the baro...(and the mano for that matter) are monitoring and contingent upon pressures within the same room.
Allowing the baro to use only outside air would negate its setting...as it would experience fluctuating conditions...like the top of your chimney does already.
Its a self defeating idea unfortunately.
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:21 pm

Rigar wrote:No...
Its no because...
you need the baro to pull air from the same environment that the appliance is in.PERIOD

I know other folks and myself open windows to a degree for various reasons one being fresh combustion are, how do I tell that air not to go through my baro?... I not trying to be a wise ass....yeah sure, but do you see my point?
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Rigar On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:26 pm

I see your point and I agree to an extent...
the difference would be the air is finally stabilized within the room.
your post originally talked about piping air directly into the baro... I guess that would be the difference
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:45 pm

Rigar wrote:Cont...
By environment i mean "atmospheric environment"...
...the baro...(and the mano for that matter) are monitoring and contingent upon pressures within the same room.
Allowing the baro to use only outside air would negate its setting...as it would experience fluctuating conditions...like the top of your chimney does already.
Its a self defeating idea unfortunately.

I understand what the manometer is measuring. The difference in the room in which the display is in and that room for discussion sake is ".00" W.C. and draw on my stove via the chimney. The reason I pose this is the fact that my basement is invaded at every possible crack and due to the stove's draw and the baro's draw, I'm no scientist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, Is my basement really at .0 W.C.?
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:48 pm

Rigar wrote:I see your point and I agree to an extent...
the difference would be the air is finally stabilized within the room.
your post originally talked about piping air directly into the baro... I guess that would be the difference

Thanks for your concern I guess a mpd before baro or would help. I didn't have this draft issue with the stove upstairs last winter, didn't have this weather either!
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Rigar On: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:55 pm

Theres a mis understanding about baros...
The baro does not create draft. The appliance (heat from combustion ) does.
The baro is more to regulate draft...or more accurately stated..."the baro actually regulates where the needed air to mantain a proper draft will come from."
..a baro...when properly set...maintains a "range"of draft at the breech.
When flue pressures approach the weighted dampers settings...it begins to open..and will continue to open until its limit is reached(determined by the weights setting)
..so when we burn hotter and longer ( now throw some wind in there too)..the baro will tend to stay open more..allowing more and more room air into the flue...instead of PULLING it through the appliance.
This air that is evacuated from the room will be made up somehow...usually(as in your case) through any avenue into the basement it can find (your fireplace)
... obviously... we are burning longer and hotter because it is extremely cold outside... chilling the room even more... hope this helps
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:01 am

Thanks Rigar, I was considering an air to air heat exchanger for this reason but boy they're stupid expensive, this time of year anyway. :(
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Rigar On: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:08 am

michaelanthony wrote:
Rigar wrote:Cont...
By environment i mean "atmospheric environment"...
...the baro...(and the mano for that matter) are monitoring and contingent upon pressures within the same room.
Allowing the baro to use only outside air would negate its setting...as it would experience fluctuating conditions...like the top of your chimney does already.
Its a self defeating idea unfortunately.

I understand what the manometer is measuring. The difference in the room in which the display is in and that room for discussion sake is ".00" W.C. and draw on my stove via the chimney. The reason I pose this is the fact that my basement is invaded at every possible crack and due to the stove's draw and the baro's draw, I'm no scientist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, Is my basement really at .0 W.C.?



...yes...it would be when compared to itself...there would be no differnce to read i suppose
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Lightning On: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:31 am

In extreme weather conditions like this, I have been clamping my baro closed and regulating draft pressure with the MPD. I'm doing this to cut down on air infiltration. Its been working good with the exception that I loose some of the automatic regulating effect that the baro has. This tends to make my furnace temperature yo - yo somewhat and makes for a few extra trips to the basement to re adjust my combustion air setting. I do have to admit though, my basement seems warmer, I'm guessing due to less air infiltration :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Cold weather exposes issues!

PostBy: Berlin On: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:16 am

Look, the amount of air your baro is using is nothing compared to the loss in the upper floors and infiltration in the lower floors from the stack effect of the house itself. Playing around with the baro or closing it off (which makes your life more difficult) is not measurably saving you anything. If you have too much draft with your baro, buy a bigger ( 7,8 or 9") and install it on your flue with a reducer, that's the proper way to take care of any excessive draft and not have to play around.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal