Boiler won't make temperature!

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: titleist1 On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:27 am

Buckslayer wrote:
My point, I don't know where the communication broke down between my installer and the manufacturer. Not my problem. Long story short, I payed out good money for something that doesn't work as promised, and it took me reporting them to get them to do something.


You are correct the communication between LL & your installer isn't your problem..unfortunately the lack of heat is your problem since it is you and your family dealing with it during the coldest snap in two years. It shouldn't be your problem, but with an installer that is not responsive since he already got full payment, it becomes your problem unless you want to sit around through the next cold snap waiting for them to do something. Who is this installer?

My approach and yours vary a little...I would have made the end run after 2-3 days (telling the installer that is all they had before I took action) at the most and worked with LL directly, letting them worry about collecting any other charges from my installer. The more time that you deal with a problem, the more emotionally driven you get (angrier) and that usually clouds the decision making process toward the best all around solution.

A public forum is one way to vent (i've done it myself) and on this particular forum a great way to find a resolution. When presented with the probable solution, the replacement fan, I would have called LL, (their phone # is listed multiple places in the manual) and got them to ship the fan to me directly. Move past the emotion and get to fixing it. Then you can get back to the justifiable, emotional, collecting of that pound of flesh from the installer while you are warm.

Good thing you didn't get a Harman boiler - talk about a company that hates its customers! At least LL is on here, accessible, and it seems open to suggestions. One suggestion in this case is they ship replacement fans directly to the end customers rather than through dealers if that is what the customer wants.

I am still very interested in the name of the installer, please list it.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: plumber On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:34 am

Rick 386 wrote:
Buckslayer wrote:All this information makes sence. I think a lot of the information on Leisure Lines website and literature is very misleading on what this boiler can do. I have a very big gripe with the installer who told me to my face that the boiler would do what I wanted it to do. I am now running on oil and still running out of hot water. I was told I could run 5 gallons per minute from now to forever and never run out. That extra cost me $500.
I'm done messing with this. Tomorrow I'm going back to the way I was. The installer is taking this thing out of my house and putting a new boiler and oil fired water heater. At least I still have my stove to burn all this coal in! In the mean time I'll be looking into a real boiler that will actually fit my needs, and live up to what I expect. 4 tons of wasted coal for nothing. I gave them until Wednesday to fix it, and that's tomorrow. Im done.



Wow........................

So you tried to heat your house and provide unlimited DHW with a marginally sized coal boiler and it didn't work. You throw an unrealistic demand to resolve the issue in 3 days and that doesn't work so you want a new oil boiler that will be way more efficient than your old one but...but you are going to now add an oil fired hot water heater so that load will no longer affect your heating needs and you want to be pissed off and blame the coal boiler manufacturer???? The same manufacturer who personally came out on this board the same day you reported the problem to address the concern. And who admitted they recently found out they had a problem and are scrambling to resolve the problem as soon as they physically can.

Geez, I'm glad I never sold you anything.

Yes these are harsh words but I think between the manufacturer and those here who have tried to help you, you are being unreasonable with your expectation of burning coal to heat your house with the equipment you purchased. I think some of the blame can be put on the person you see in the mirror.




Rick


Rick, there's a big differance between you and I calling the manufacturer or dealer to pick up a boiler to put in ourselves.
My customers rely on me as the expert to provide them with their options and install the right equipment correctly. This guy payed someone else to provide a service as well as a product. I do believe he was delt a great disservice. He was given equipment that did not live up to his expectations. I believe this to be paramount over the issue LL is working on resolving.
If he went out and bought the unit himself and installed it himself I'd agree with you 100%, but he payed an "expert" to do that for him. If I did that to one of my customers I'd be hung out to dry, and hope the state didn't get involved.

Buckslayer, if you still want to burn coal. Contact LL and let them make the boiler right. Then make your installer fix their errors and make your system right. If they won't demand your money back and pay someone that knows what they are doing to make it right. There are ways to make your boiler do what you want. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.
plumber
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 350
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL110/165 Boiler

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: plumber On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:38 am

titleist1 wrote:
Buckslayer wrote:
My point, I don't know where the communication broke down between my installer and the manufacturer. Not my problem. Long story short, I payed out good money for something that doesn't work as promised, and it took me reporting them to get them to do something.


You are correct the communication between LL & your installer isn't your problem..unfortunately the lack of heat is your problem since it is you and your family dealing with it during the coldest snap in two years. It shouldn't be your problem, but with an installer that is not responsive since he already got full payment, it becomes your problem unless you want to sit around through the next cold snap waiting for them to do something. Who is this installer?

My approach and yours vary a little...I would have made the end run after 2-3 days (telling the installer that is all they had before I took action) at the most and worked with LL directly, letting them worry about collecting any other charges from my installer. The more time that you deal with a problem, the more emotionally driven you get (angrier) and that usually clouds the decision making process toward the best all around solution.

A public forum is one way to vent (i've done it myself) and on this particular forum a great way to find a resolution. When presented with the probable solution, the replacement fan, I would have called LL, (their phone # is listed multiple places in the manual) and got them to ship the fan to me directly. Move past the emotion and get to fixing it. Then you can get back to the justifiable, emotional, collecting of that pound of flesh from the installer while you are warm.

Good thing you didn't get a Harman boiler - talk about a company that hates its customers! At least LL is on here, accessible, and it seems open to suggestions. One suggestion in this case is they ship replacement fans directly to the end customers rather than through dealers if that is what the customer wants.

I am still very interested in the name of the installer, please list it.


Can't agree with you more!!
Please out this bum, so others don't get taken.
I don't know how things work in New York, but I'd have his ass before the board if he is licensed. If not I'd have him in jail!
Don't know about the laws elsewhere, but in RI MA and CT performing work without a licence is a criminal offense. Doing stuff like this is a good way to lose one if you got it.
plumber
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 350
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL110/165 Boiler

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:38 am

bottom line is your installer/ dealer is either incompetent or blowing smoke up your ass.
and you are right... it is up toTHEM to correct the problem and get you parts...
... so why are you trusting THEM to do that... while at the same time the manufactures rep is willing to send you the fix iif he only new how to get it to you!
I totally understand your frustration.... totally!
but leisure line did not sell you the boiler
they did not install your boiler
... they simply built it ....
and if they knew where to send the fan... you probably would have one by now.
there is a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum ... all of them trying to help you.
but sometimes you just gotta help yourself...
I hope you give the boiler a fair chance with the right fan...
and you can enjoy the benefits of heating with coal... like all of the other people on the site that took it upon themselves to try and help you through this... more so than your dealer did !!!
I wish you luck with this 1 my friend!.....stay warm...
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Paulie On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:10 pm

Wow, long thread! Smitty is right, hot water coils are a loser, separate zone with a super store is the only way to go, makes for a handy dump zone too. The fan is an issue, but I suspect more going
on here. Think the problem may be the installer. Draft sounded too high, pumping heat out the chimney. Coal quality always a
variable, figuring 70 % of appliance rating "wise" to give a wiggle room for variables. That the oil boiler is not getting it done now
either, sounds like a plumbing issue.
Can't blame the guy for being over the edge, lot of cash to be cold. But....solving problems requires a cool head.Ultimately, it is the home owners problem, his house is cold. Two boilers,
two fuels, common pumps, expansion tank, etc....fairly complicated, bound to be some bugs. I would put the new fan on, and level the baro myself,
and set it. See how it goes. I would bring an experienced plumber,NOT the installer, to check out valving/pumps/piping to make sure right. 2nd opinion may help find issues that can then be corrected by the installer. Once set up
correctly, it will make heat. Then , burn buck if you need "faster burn". Personally, I would not run boilers in series or parallel I would run
them independent. Couple valves and a switch to go from one to the other. Couple bucks more for pumps etc, but simpler and more reliable. Even on your worst day, one is gonna work-hope he is warm soon!
Paulie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:29 pm

Why this assumption that the boiler is under size? A modern 1800 square foot house should be heated easily by a 100,000 Btu boiler and was heated satisfactorily with a smaller oil fired boiler. Many on this forum are heating bigger older houses with less.

I get the impression that the dealer was the installer or selected the installer. It is the responsibility of the installer to see that the unit is running properly and if not to fix it or if the problem is in the burner at least troubleshoot it or get someone who is capable of doing that. I have known installers who do a great job of piping but know nothing of the electrics or burner.

Two weeks is much too long spent hoping either the customer or the problem will go away. Answers at least should have been forthcoming in one or two days. I think Buckslayer did the right thing in working through the dealer. It was up to the dealer to appeal for help or expertise to the maker if that was needed. If that were done I don't think there would be a justifiably irate customer. Having demonstrated this degree of incompetence the dealer should provide a full refund and swallow the loss.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:52 pm

My HVAC wholesaler will open up any time they are closed for emergency items. The local branch manager or whoever he designates will open the door and turn on the lights. They would not likely do if for me, a shade tree type mechanic, but they do it. Getting emergency parts on Sunday or a Holiday is no problem for a real installer. Sounds like this installer is working outside his skill set.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:18 pm

Yanche wrote:Sounds like this installer is working outside his skill set.

I agree but there is some justification in the modular construction of today's units. Things are pre wired and factory set up to be plug and play. Years ago there was often an electrician and burner man involved as well as the pipe fitter.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:51 pm

Paulie wrote:Wow, long thread! Smitty is right, hot water coils are a loser, separate zone with a super store is the only way to go


If the boiler can't keep up with DHW demand I'd agree on the need for some kind of storage, but in a bigger boiler I'd rather have just the coil. It cuts out the middleman and recovers faster.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:01 pm

Yanche wrote: Sounds like this installer is working outside his skill set.


or

The client is dictating an assignment to the lowest bidder and now has buyers remorse

OH ME -- here come the dispersions again :shock:
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:29 pm

Sting wrote:or
The client is dictating an assignment to the lowest bidder and now has buyers remorse
OH ME -- here come the dispersions again :shock:


LOL...hi Sting..how are u? Whats a good thread worth without your stick to stir the S**T?!...Right?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:34 pm

Sting wrote:
Yanche wrote: Sounds like this installer is working outside his skill set.


or

The client is dictating an assignment to the lowest bidder and now has buyers remorse

OH ME -- here come the dispersions again :shock:




Oh no that never happens does IT ???????????



Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: steamup On: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:47 pm

I am thinking LL is scrambling as fast as they can to get the solution in hand.

I bet they have been working on this for some time because these types of problems are difficult to pin down.

Last year was a warm winter around here. If problems existed, it would have been almost impossible to diagnose without extensive testing facilities that they do not have. (we are not talking Fortune 500 here) This year no doubt developed some concrete information for them. It is as simple as saying "bingo- this is the problem" Sorting out the user errors vs. the real problem is daunting. Careful engineering/testing must be done to identify the issue. Documentation must be done. LL may or may not have recourse against their supplier. And when the solution is identified, ordering the fans. We are not talking one or two or three fans. We are probably talking one or two or three HUNDRED fans. These are not going to be sitting on someone's shelf anywhere. Many manufacturers keep thin stock and build to order.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Joeski On: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:49 pm

Buckslayer wrote:
Flyer5 wrote: I am not sure what happened or was said with your dealer. But we are working on this issue. Being that it is a new part that we do not stock and we had to verify the fix before just jumping out with this blower. The 5 gal coil should not have been a $500 option. I can tell you I have a 3gal coil and with a 1.5gal/ shower and a 5yr old daughter, we have steady hot water with the new blower. So with that being said, giving a unreasonable time frame to correct this problem is not the best answer. I cannot tell you what to do but I am asking for reasonable time to rectify this issue. I know you will be pleased once this is replaced. We have also asked you to call or PM us and have yet to hear from you.
Dave


What is a "reasonable" time frame to fix a boiler when someone has no heat? As a landlord, I have 24 hours to fix a tenants heat or I'm in deep you know what. You have a defective product, and you wait on your suppliers? Once you located the problem, the replacement parts shoul have been drop shipped next day air to anyone affected and a supply sent to your dealers the same way! I've been going back and forth with my installer for two weeks, and it took me reporting them to the county to have any action taken. If this is how your company fixes customer issues, I'm glad they will be removing your product from my home. Once I am warm I will be researching a unit with a company who takes care of their customers. I've been dealing with my installer, who you should have heard from. I think everyone with your boiler should already have the replacement fans in their hands already. When someone has no heat waiting on parts and shipping is simply not acceptable.

You are really being over the top. Leisure Line has excellent customer service.
Joeski
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Reading
Stove/Furnace Model: Susquehanna

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Joeski On: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:55 pm

Buckslayer wrote:
Berlin wrote:Rick, I spend over 7K to install a heating system and it doesn't do what the literature and salesman/installer says it will, I'm cold and the hot water I'm promised isn't there, are you kidding me?? this guy is incredibly calm compared what my response would be.

Now, his expectations may well have been wrong considering the issue once the numbers are crunched and it's determined that the sizing is incorrect. Unfortunately, It wasn't his job to spend hours calculating and sizing boilers, that was his installer's job. Mistakes were made, but to place the blame at the feet of the end-user, the end-user that hired a boiler installer, the end user that went over what he wanted before it was installed, the end user that purchased a brand-new boiler being assured it would take care of his needs, is a serious misappropriation of blame here.

I have no interest in Leisure line or in any of their competitors, and I'm sure they're a great company with a good track record. However, to make a guy wait in the cold wasting coal with equiptment that won't even fire close to rated input because of a known issue with a blower is a misguided approach to customer service. Blowers are a dime a dozen, he should have been sent (or his installer should have been sent) Immediately one of the many readily available brands of blowers, that could be rigged up, even temporarily, to his equipment to move enough cfm @ pressure to produce at least the rating on the boiler.

Having said all that, If he hasn't responded to any sincere attempts to contact him and make this right, well, at that point, there's not much more Leisure Line can do.


My point, I don't know where the communication broke down between my installer and the manufacturer. Not my problem. Long story short, I payed out good money for something that doesn't work as promised, and it took me reporting them to get them to do something.

You typed it's not your problem. Well then why are you freaking out so much and haven't followed up again and again and again with the installer? You sound like you are having a big problem. And why would you pay them before the work was done?
Joeski
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Reading
Stove/Furnace Model: Susquehanna

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