Boiler won't make temperature!

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:43 pm

stoker_RI wrote:
Dave..can you elaborate on the relationship between static air in the base and the current fan?

-isn't the stock fan rated at 60 cfm also? Is the new fan the same brand?
-with the old fan, what would u expect your home temps to be?
-are you seeing an increase in coal usage? And/or are u able to burn more coal?
-Are you burning rice or buck?...fyi...no buck anywhere in New England that I know of.
THANKS



Static pressure under the grate. This was scientifically measured by removing one of the fan mounting bolts and inserting the air meter. Before with old 60cfm fan wide open I was seeing .04 draft above the boiler. and .04 in the base. Flames were barely 1 foot high. With the new 65cfm fan wide open I went positive pressure in the base there is a plate for the inlet to block off air. Adjusted the inlet to .02- .03 in the base. Nice high flames right up around the diffuser. Flue temp stayed the same right around 208* at full burn with IR gun. Boiler temp went right up to 180*
The surprising thing was I was expecting to use more coal since I turned my Max feed screw 1/2 turn . Actually I burned about the same or less to maintain my home to the same temp of 72* I was burning between 110-120# / day since the cold moved in. I am still burning the same amount of coal approximately too lazy to get that detailed.
So Friday night set my 3 zones to 80* within 2hrs I was there. Again I didn't actually make it too calculated. I have a 5yr old to entertain. But id did get there . The Boiler cycled on and off as expected during the heating process. I am set at 165 and 185 w 10* diff.
I burn rice.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:02 pm

Rigar wrote:Lol...while we're asking questions...i got some too ( I've been following this post... And i have stayed out of it until now)
...matthaus stated.
LL ran boilers for 2 days... flat out... while doingUL testing
flat out they were able to burn 65 pounds of coal per operation shift....
how many hours is an operation shift ??
testing resulted in BTU output of 85000 to 101000 ...
.... how or why is this boiler rated at 110 000 btu ?
... I know leisure line will stand behind their product... I just was curious as to some numbers...

.... bottom line... the boiler does seem to be lacking combustion air.
.. there is a correlation between supply air... draft...and stack velocity
... regardless... I would suggest 10-15 cfm (comb air)/ lb coal...minimum

thanks...and stay warm


I am not sure about that first part. Matt will have to answer that.

As far as 10-15cfm/lb coal. I do not see that as being a linear # , Example if you want to burn 1 lb coal at most efficiency you need at least 10CFM if you want to burn 5lbs at once that cfm # / lb needed seems to decrease as well as once the grate heats up it helps. Also the draft of the flue also adds to the cfm flow through the stoker. I have heard of stoves running just off the draft of the Powerventer with the combustion blower being bad. This is not recommended to try.
Draft will limit the output of any unit. If you have poor draft and cannot evacuate the amount of combustion air needed to get a certain output you will not be able to get the most from any appliance. Luckily when the draft is at its worst it is when the weather is warmer and less is needed.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:20 pm

Oh i agree ...by no means were my numbers meant to be lineal or in stone..
But it seems its easier (or better) to be able to slow available combustion air down than to not have enough...
Ive actually lost power...by luck had good draft ...and my stoker kept burning til power came back on (i had to add some rice by hand)...but like you mentioned...it wasnt an optimum burn
Thanks Flyer5 for the feedback
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:38 pm

That sucks when suppliers change things without letting the end use know !!!!!! :mad:

Happened to me so many times.



Glad to see you guys have a handle on it as I knew you would..................




Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:06 am

Rigar wrote:Lol...while we're asking questions...i got some too ( I've been following this post... And i have stayed out of it until now)
...matthaus stated. LL ran boilers for 2 days... flat out... while doing UL testing flat out they were able to burn 65 pounds of coal per operation shift.... how many hours is an operation shift ??
testing resulted in BTU output of 85000 to 101000 ... how or why is this boiler rated at 110 000 btu ?... I know leisure line will stand behind their product... I just was curious as to some numbers....... bottom line... the boiler does seem to be lacking combustion air... there is a correlation between supply air... draft...and stack velocity... regardless... I would suggest 10-15 cfm (comb air)/ lb coal...minimum, thanks...and stay warm


Testing consisted of 8 hours per operation shift with relighting the boiler each day.
Leisure Line Boilers are rated at input btuh not output btuh, the numbers for DHW are not as easily calculated since a tempering valve will be used and the flow rate in most homes is less than 2 GPM in the shower.
The correct ratio is approximately 20% combustion air, running the numbers that should be around 50 to 60 cfm for this boiler, however the static pressure curve of the fans we selected has no been constant for some reason, don't have any real answers but we do know as Dave stated that the new fans will work.
Yes there is a correlation between supply air and draft, stack velocity. Volumetric efficiency is determined by both pressure and flow, so bottom line is no real numbers are possible without proper instrumentation, suffice it to say that the WL 110 is designed for proper flue gas flow with a 12 ' 6" chimney (as stated in the manual) and any obstruction can affect the output, just as can any degradation of the combustion air flow.
Hope this helps answer some of the questions, there are no absolutes since every site is different, but we do expect all boilers to be capable of burning 200 # per 24 hour period, so we will not rest until all questions are answered and all customers are happy.
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:06 am

The million dollar question: If the coal is average, the boiler is expected to be cleaned as necessary, and there is enough air/draft to burn all the coal that can be fed...what is the maximum connected load that you recommend?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Buckslayer On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:13 am

Matthaus wrote:Leisure Line Boilers are rated at input btuh not output btuh, the numbers for DHW are not as easily calculated since a tempering valve will be used and the flow rate in most homes is less than 2 GPM in the shower.y.


The wording can be very misleading to those without the proper background. My installer explained to me that the boiler would put out 99000 btu as per the info on your website its 90% efficient and puts out 110000 btu. So indirectly you do advertise the boiler to put out 99000 btu. With more than one shower I can flow 5 gallons per minute. I payed extra money to get 5 gallons per minute. Thats what I expect!

Matthaus wrote: The correct ratio is approximately 20% combustion air, running the numbers that should be around 50 to 60 cfm for this boiler, however the static pressure curve of the fans we selected has no been constant for some reason, don't have any real answers but we do know as Dave stated that the new fans will work.
Yes there is a correlation between supply air and draft, stack velocity. Volumetric efficiency is determined by both pressure and flow, so bottom line is no real numbers are possible without proper instrumentation, suffice it to say that the WL 110 is designed for proper flue gas flow with a 12 ' 6" chimney (as stated in the manual) and any obstruction can affect the output, just as can any degradation of the combustion air flow.
Hope this helps answer some of the questions, there are no absolutes since every site is different, but we do expect all boilers to be capable of burning 200 # per 24 hour period, so we will not rest until all questions are answered and all customers are happy.


I'm sure my installer will be contacting you about this. I put him on notice that he had until Wednesday to correct this problem or replace the boiler. If not, I want my money back and I'll be reporting them to the county. I was promised a product to perform to a certain level, I'm getting half of that. I will not settle for less. $7000 is way to much money to spend on a unit that still has bugs to be worked out of it.
Buckslayer
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: 110k / lilheater

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Buckslayer On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:17 am

Rob R. wrote:The million dollar question: If the coal is average, the boiler is expected to be cleaned as necessary, and there is enough air/draft to burn all the coal that can be fed...what is the maximum connected load that you recommend?


Yes the million dollar question!
Let us know what the advertised output is. Just giving the input is very misleading.
Indirectly it is advertised at 99000. Their website claims 110000 input at 90% efficiency.
Will this fan allow me and everyone else to burn 9 lbs an hour??
Buckslayer
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: 110k / lilheater

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:31 am

You did state that your old oil burner boiler heated the house OK. If you can dig up how many gallons you were burning in similar weather it would tell us what the heat loss of the house is and how many pounds of coal should be needed per day.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Buckslayer On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:25 pm

franco b wrote:You did state that your old oil burner boiler heated the house OK. If you can dig up how many gallons you were burning in similar weather it would tell us what the heat loss of the house is and how many pounds of coal should be needed per day.


Before the stove I averaged 600-650 gallons per year.
Buckslayer
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: 110k / lilheater

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:14 pm

Buckslayer wrote:Before the stove I averaged 600-650 gallons per year.

OK if you lived in my area of CT the number of degree days are about 6000 for the year. Dividing 600 into 6000 equals 10 which are the number of degree days that go by for each gallon of oil you burned. A degree day is the average temperature subtracted from 65 which is the temperature at which it is felt no heat will be needed.

Suppose there was a day where the temp. low was 10 and the high was 20. Adding the two together we get 30 and dividing by 2 we get the average of 15. Subtracting 15 from 65 we get 50 degree days and since we burn a gallon of oil for each 10 degree days we would burn 5 gallons of oil on that day.

To relate this to coal usage we only have to use the Btu value of coal in pounds to replace the gallons of oil.

Oil has about 140,000 Btu per gallon. Assuming 80 percent efficiency for the oil boiler the net Btu is 140,000 times .80 or 112,000 net Btu per gallon. So that 5 gallons produced 560,000 Btu net to heat the house and supply hot water.

If your coal has 13,000 Btu per pound and we also assume 80 percent efficiency we get net Btu of 10,400 per pound. If we divide that into the oil Btu we get 10.77 pounds of coal to equal 1 gallon of oil. Since you burned 600 gallons of oil you should expect to burn 10.77 times 600 for the season or 6462 pounds or 3.23 tons. On that cold day you burned 5 gallons you would burn 5 times 10.77 pounds of coal or about 54 pounds. A little over a pound for each degree day.

These figures can only be as close as the assumptions I made concerning the number of degree days in your area, the relative efficiency of the boilers and the actual heat content of the coal you are using. Also that you are keeping the house at the same temperature.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:46 pm

franco b wrote:A little over a pound for each degree day.

franco, thats an awesome piece of work partner 8-)

Thats just about exactly what I'm burning and my house is only slightly bigger... He reports 100 pounds a day. Even during this cold blast I ran 70 pounds per day for about 6 days. This guy is absolutely loosing heat somewhere between the boiler and the house, whether its up the chimney or thru piping or its being radiated from the boiler. Heat doesn't vanish, it can only be transfered from one thing to another. And if it ain't going to the house ----- I think ya'll catch my drift at this point :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:02 pm

Lightning wrote:
franco b wrote:A little over a pound for each degree day.

franco, thats an awesome piece of work partner 8-)

Thats just about exactly what I'm burning and my house is only slightly bigger... He reports 100 pounds a day. Even during this cold blast I ran 70 pounds per day for about 6 days. This guy is absolutely loosing heat somewhere between the boiler and the house, whether its up the chimney or thru piping or its being radiated from the boiler. Heat doesn't vanish, it can only be transfered from one thing to another. And if it ain't going to the house ----- I think ya'll catch my drift at this point :D

...yes franco..that was very well written!! nice work
..but this is what i cant get my head around...

Buckslayer cant burn any more coal if he wanted to...it would drop into the ash pan ?
Your calcs are spot on im sure...so would that mean his old boiler probably dint keep up as well too ?
Im unclear on the real issue here
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: tsb On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:20 pm

Somebody smarter than me needs to reread the initial post.
80,000 btu loss for an 1800 sq ft house. Can this be possible ?
I have a larger house with a full above ground basement with
a smaller boiler. My boiler will hold it's own till we get below 20 all day.
I burn no more that 80 lbs a day. That's only 40,000 btu an hour for
a 24 hour day. I also have DHW out the bazo. Something ain't right here.
Last edited by tsb on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:32 pm

The thing that is significant to me is what both matthaus and flyer reported on and that is the under performing combustion fan.

What I am trying to get my head around is if that could cause excess consumption of coal and if so how? It would explain the poor generation of domestic hot water. Perhaps by constantly under firing the boiler is never satisfied and the burner never reaches a low fire or idling state. The very low stack temperature seems to confirm this too. If that fire is too cool it will not burn as efficiently as a hot fire will generating more co as well as unburned volatiles. Kind of like replacing the burner with a candle. Nothing will be satisfied and you will go through a lot of candles.

Measuring co2 and perhaps co as well in the flue gas could confirm. Or just replace the fan and see what happens.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

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