Boiler won't make temperature!

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:34 am

plumber wrote:If the boiler was generating 100,000 btu/h output, he'd have a net gain of 20,000 btu/h. That being the case, he'd have a warm house and the boiler would be cycling.



...i understand the net gain...but the 80 k heat los was for the radiators?
.. what about domestic hot water?
... or am I missing something here?
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: plumber On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:47 am

Yes he has 80,000 btu o installed radiation. I have no idea what his real heat loss is. It could be 50,000 it could be 80,000. My house for instance has 88,000 btu of installed radiation with a actual heat loss of 67,000 on a 0 degree day. For that reason I still get good heat with 150-160 degree water. Most contractors around these parts don't install baseboard with a lot of wiggle room. In most cases a lot of houses here have 80,000 of installed radiation with a heat loss of 75,000. If you're not giving that baseboard 180 degree water, you're going backwards fast!
plumber
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 350
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL110/165 Boiler

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rob R. On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:52 am

I think we should all relax and wait and see if the new & improved fan allows the boiler to reach its full potential. If it still struggles to heat the house with the new fan, it will be time for plan "B".
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:58 am

Rob R. wrote:I think we should all relax and wait and see if the new & improved fan allows the boiler to reach its full potential. If it still struggles to heat the house with the new fan, it will be time for plan "B".


Relax ?
Wait ?
what the hell fun would that be ???? :D


...i hope it all works out
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: plumber On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:14 am

I'm looking forward to the new fan as well!
plumber
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 350
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL110/165 Boiler

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Buckslayer On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:02 pm

So if these fans are the cure, when are they being shipped out? Should we expect them this week?
Buckslayer
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: 110k / lilheater

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:30 pm

Buckslayer wrote:So if these fans are the cure, when are they being shipped out? Should we expect them this week?

They are ordered. Expecting them Wed or Thursday. I cant control vendors so it is not a guarantee. They will ship the same day we get em in. I need your Name address and Phone #. You can PM me . Or tell me the dealer and it will go there. Either way. Thanks. Dave
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: steamup On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:01 pm

Lots of information flying about here. I have been reading with great curiousity.

To be simply put, we are having reality of the unknown variables screw up what theory says should work.

Let's look at the combustion air fan side of things:

Using stoichiometry combustion calculations, one can calculate the amount of air needed to combust coal. However, in the real world, it is impossible to achieve complete combustion with the exact amount of air for the chemcial reaction. Excess air is required. The men who have passed before us learned that you need about 40% (rule of thumb) excess air for anthracite. It is different for hand fired vs. stoker and I am sure different designs require different excess air. Not to bore you with the calculation, but if you run it with 40% excess air, the 60 cfm blower used is the right size as far as capacity vs theory.

Too little excess air leave unburned coal and gas. Increases the potential for an explosion.
Too much excess air and a lot of heat is lost to heating the air (yes, it can be considerable)

Now here is the problem. Different coal qualities require different air quanities. I have seen excess air requirements for Semi-anthracite listed as high as 70%. Other variables are static pressure. Fans are pumps for air and have a curve that varies with resistance. Things that vary resistance are air hole sizes in the grate, ash buildup in the boiler, coal size, the amount of fines, air density, etc. Also, as I have found with my Keystoker, ash dust buildup on the fan blades reduce performance. Draft at the outlet of the boiler will affect the fan static resistance.

What ever the issue is, I applaud Leisure Line in responding as best they can.

Now let's look at the application side of things.

If I have a boiler that is advertised at 110 MBH input at 90% I could in threoy get 99 MBH output. But no way would I count on it.
Why not? - because it is based on the best conditions with good coal and a clean boiler that has has time to come up to full fire. We are dealing with solid fuel and it behaves very different than push button fuels that are instant on and instant off.

Any boiler sizing should take in account pickup. Regardless of fuel, it is industry practice to use a 15% de-rating factor for hot water systems. (steam is 35% by the way) This would mean don't hook up to a load greater than 84 MBH and expect to keep up.

Now with coal, I haven't seen a pickup factor listed. One has to realize that there is significate time lag from the call of heat to full fire. I would tend to think a greater pickup factor is required sizing a coal stoker boiler than a push button fuel boiler. I won't go into hand fired here as that leads to a more complicated discussion.

Now we haven't defined the load.

If I calculate a load for a building, I use design weather conditions. These conditions are a theoretical temperature based on statistics. Now realize, if an area has 0 deg. F. design temp, it is usually based on it not going below that more than 2-1/2% of the time of the year. You are going to exceed these temperatures at some point for some time. In my case, it was -5 to -17 below zero for 3 mornings in a row in my area that has a 2 deg. F. winter design temperature. In other words, you have to properly oversize beyond the pickup factor. Better add 10 to 15% to those numbers.

That means better not hookup to greater than a 75 -76 MBH calcualted load. That includes domestic hot water!!.

Now here is the problem with Domestic hot water and tankless coils. They are an instaneous heater. However, the boiler doesn't respond instantenously. Also, just cause they can flow 5 gpm, the don't guarentee you can get the temperature rise you desire. Let's see, 5 gpm x 8.33 lb/gal x 1 btu/lb x 50 deg water to 110 deg water x 60 min/hr = 149,940 BTUH. Don't expect any boiler with less than this output rating to handle a sustained hot water load. That doesn't include any heating load. The best one can do with a coal boiler is use the mass of the boiler to generate the hot water until it catches up. If a boiler has 12 gallons of 180 deg water, expect to get about 14 gallons of 110 deg domestic water and wait for the boiler to catch up. At 5 gpm, you got about 3 minutes of hot water. That shouldn't be a problem for you Navy guys.

Now bottom line to this rambling, is application, application, application. One must be very careful in sizing small boilers. Not much room for error.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: steamup On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:01 pm

Edit - oops, it the submit button twice
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:17 pm

Well written
.bravo steamup


....but i gotta amitt....i had ta read it two tree times...
...what about use guys?
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Buckslayer On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:21 pm

All this information makes sence. I think a lot of the information on Leisure Lines website and literature is very misleading on what this boiler can do. I have a very big gripe with the installer who told me to my face that the boiler would do what I wanted it to do. I am now running on oil and still running out of hot water. I was told I could run 5 gallons per minute from now to forever and never run out. That extra cost me $500.
I'm done messing with this. Tomorrow I'm going back to the way I was. The installer is taking this thing out of my house and putting a new boiler and oil fired water heater. At least I still have my stove to burn all this coal in! In the mean time I'll be looking into a real boiler that will actually fit my needs, and live up to what I expect. 4 tons of wasted coal for nothing. I gave them until Wednesday to fix it, and that's tomorrow. Im done.
Buckslayer
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: 110k / lilheater

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: tsb On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:34 pm

Things were getting a little tense in this post so I sat out for a while, but
I want to show how I "juiced" the pioneer stoker grate in my home build boiler.

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This picture show the shelf that I added to the pioneer grate.
It make the coal build up a little deeper on the grate.

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This picture show the shelf with the ash brushed off.

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This is a picture of the larger combustion fan that I adapted to the feeder.

These improvements give me a much better burn even with the crappy Blaschak coal
I got last year. With this years' DiRenzo coal, it's just gang busters.
So I think the larger fans will make a significant improvement in the 110 boiler.
tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: plumber On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:38 pm

Buckslayer, I can tell you're mad. If I were you I'd be fuming. I think we are all frustrated with the problems with the boiler. I am for one, but do you really want to go back to oil? If the combustion fan fixes the BTU output issue, I guarantee there are ways to make the boiler do what you want. I'd still go after your installer, and force them to make it right. They obviously sold you a truckload BS. This boiler can heat your home at full output. Now about your DHW, a tankless is the worst way to make hot water. Anyone in the business knows that. There is a reason those 5 GPM on demand water heaters have 200,000 BTU burners. They should have never promised you that kind of output from a 100,000 BTU solid fuel boiler. This sounds like something from a low bid un licensed Craigslist ad. What I reccomeded is either have them install an indirect water heater set on priority, or set up a storage tank to circulate from your tankless.
When I got my boiler, I got the 5 GPM coil. I upgraded for a different reason, I wanted to try something. I have it looped to a 40 gallon storage tank with the cold feeding into the bottom loop. The tankless never sees cold water. I store my hot water at 160 and mix it down to 120. If you piped it like this on oil, you'd kill yourself when the oilman came! However, with solid fuel it works grate! In the winter I use the temperature as a buffer for when DHW is competing with heat, and in the summer I take all my DHW needs off idle, the burner circuit never fires, just off the timer. This also keeps my dump zone from going off and cooking my basement. Any plumber worth his salt should be able to hook you up right. We're all aggravated right now, but you were screwed by the morons who sold and installed your boiler. Don't let them off the hook.
plumber
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 350
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL110/165 Boiler

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: Rigar On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:44 pm

Buckslayer wrote:All this information makes sence. I think a lot of the information on Leisure Lines website and literature is very misleading on what this boiler can do. I have a very big gripe with the installer who told me to my face that the boiler would do what I wanted it to do. I am now running on oil and still running out of hot water. I was told I could run 5 gallons per minute from now to forever and never run out. That extra cost me $500.
I'm done messing with this. Tomorrow I'm going back to the way I was. The installer is taking this thing out of my house and putting a new boiler and oil fired water heater. At least I still have my stove to burn all this coal in! In the mean time I'll be looking into a real boiler that will actually fit my needs, and live up to what I expect. 4 tons of wasted coal for nothing. I gave them until Wednesday to fix it, and that's tomorrow. Im done.


..have them credit you towards a larger boiler
youll save money with coal over oil
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Boiler won't make temperature!

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:47 pm

Indirect on a dedicated zone is the only way to go for DHW. I grew up with tankless DHW, and then had it here when I moved in - neither place had hot water that lasted more than one shower. Run a load of laundry or the dishwasher, and it was lukewarm at best. Since I installed that indirect back in '05, I haven't run out of hot water yet. I even have hot water all night during a power outage.
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Visit Leisure Line Stove