Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:23 pm

I posted this question on another older thread, but I think it is overlooked, so I'll start a new thread. I just recently got a huge and lightly used Surdiac 715 coal & wood burner from a genltleman that knew nothing about the stove. He just bought the property where the stove was located. After checking Myer's furniture website
http://www.myersfurniturepa.com/surdiac.pweb
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
, and comparing the parts shown to the parts on the stove, I can concur that I have the larger of the two stoves (715/515).

There is a problem! There are several missing pieces. The 2 piece "Hopper", The 2 piece "guide plates", and the custom stove pipe that is supposed to snuggly fit the 5.25" exhaust outlet/flange.

Any Surdiac Experts would like to offer any suggestions on how to get this beast burning?

I spoke to Woodsmanpartsplus.com today, and they got to a link that showed a complete exploded view of the 715. Each Hopper half is selling for nearly $200 ($400 complete hopper) :sick:

Here are my questions:

1) Can anyone post a photo of the hopper setup in their 715 515?
2) Can I burn coal without a hopper?
3) Can anyone post a photo of their guide plates?
4) Will I be able to burn wood without the guide plates?
5) Any suggestions on how to connect a stove pipe to a 5.25" diameter exhaust outlet? WoodmansPart don't have that custom pipe.

Both labeled numbers 11 and 12 are the 2 piece guide plates (left and right).
Number 6 is the complete hopper.

I would really like to her burn..... baby..... burn! 8-)
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2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: Wanna Bee On: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:41 pm

buy this one for parts


http://reading.craigslist.org/for/3466769180.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


Sorry I have no other relevant info :(
Wanna Bee
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Grander Stove Co.
Stove/Furnace Model: Royal Bride

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: Wanna Bee On: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:42 pm

double post
Wanna Bee
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Grander Stove Co.
Stove/Furnace Model: Royal Bride

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Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:55 pm

You can use the stove without hopper. Will give you more radiation off the top without it. Those missing pieces appear to be part of the hopper setup. The stove will then be batch loading and you will lose the advantages of a hopper and burn time will be shorter than with and tending time a bit longer.

Place a 6 inch elbow or straight pipe on the stove outlet and drill hole on top and screw down. Fill gaps on bottom and sides with furnace cement. If you wish you can transition to 5 inch pipe or stay with 6 inch.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:11 am

franco b wrote:You can use the stove without hopper. Will give you more radiation off the top without it. Those missing pieces appear to be part of the hopper setup. The stove will then be batch loading and you will lose the advantages of a hopper and burn time will be shorter than with and tending time a bit longer.

Place a 6 inch elbow or straight pipe on the stove outlet and drill hole on top and screw down. Fill gaps on bottom and sides with furnace cement. If you wish you can transition to 5 inch pipe or stay with 6 inch.



Hi Franco,

There is a huge gap when using a six inch pipe mounted on the outer side of the outlet. This Outlet is just weird! I worry about soot and CO even with the furnace cement filling the gaps, because the pipe is supposed to mounted onto the inner side of the stove's outlet.

As for the missing hopper, It is good to know that I can burn coal without it. I just wanted to hear it from someone else who owns these type of European stoves. Thank You for reassuring me.

Inscribed on the top loading door is a message that displays "steel plates must be installed when burning wood" The 2pc steel plates just seem like a barrier/blockade diagram. Can't I still burn wood in it with my top cast iron gasket door working properly? Franco, Does your stove burn wood good?
2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:03 pm

I only burn wood to start a fire and when I do I hang a sheet metal plate over the open door opening to prevent the glass from sooting up. The plate can be removed when the wood reaches the charcoal stage. The plate is also used to hang in place to let the door cool enough to clean every few weeks.

The long narrow fire boxes in these stoves make wood burning more difficult though the wood will burn readily enough. The Surdiac is advertised to burn wood while the Franco Belge is not.

So yes burn wood if you protect the glass from getting smoked up and only figure a short duration fire of a few hours to chase the chill and not an all day fire. For a longer fire use kindling and then add a few scoops of coal.

I have no idea of the function of the steel plates for a wood fire but I would keep a wood fire a modest size and extend the burn with coal if wanted.

To re light yesterday's fire just slice the grate and scoop out a hollow in the middle and start a new fire.

In general when smoke pipe is connected to the inside of the flange it is to allow creosote to flow back into the stove and burn. I can't picture you burning that kind of smoky fire and I would not want creosote in the heat exchanger so would advise against it so where you mount the pipe makes no difference. You could slide a 5 inch elbow into that opening and secure with 2 or 3 screws and fill the much smaller gaps with furnace cement which will give a very strong, secure and airtight fitting.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:09 am

franco b wrote:I only burn wood to start a fire and when I do I hang a sheet metal plate over the open door opening to prevent the glass from sooting up. The plate can be removed when the wood reaches the charcoal stage. The plate is also used to hang in place to let the door cool enough to clean every few weeks.

The long narrow fire boxes in these stoves make wood burning more difficult though the wood will burn readily enough. The Surdiac is advertised to burn wood while the Franco Belge is not.

So yes burn wood if you protect the glass from getting smoked up and only figure a short duration fire of a few hours to chase the chill and not an all day fire. For a longer fire use kindling and then add a few scoops of coal.

I have no idea of the function of the steel plates for a wood fire but I would keep a wood fire a modest size and extend the burn with coal if wanted.

To re light yesterday's fire just slice the grate and scoop out a hollow in the middle and start a new fire.

In general when smoke pipe is connected to the inside of the flange it is to allow creosote to flow back into the stove and burn. I can't picture you burning that kind of smoky fire and I would not want creosote in the heat exchanger so would advise against it so where you mount the pipe makes no difference. You could slide a 5 inch elbow into that opening and secure with 2 or 3 screws and fill the much smaller gaps with furnace cement which will give a very strong, secure and airtight fitting.



Thanks Franco! After thinking over your most recent post, I will go with the 6 inch pipe, I will however put some stove gasket on the outer side of the outlet, and lastly apply the furnace cement just to ease my mind.

This is my first time I will burn in a Hand fired stove. Also, this is the first attempt I will burn wood too as well. Which I intend to burn during the late evening and coal during most of the day. I know that some of the ladies and gents on the forum refer to automatic stokers as wussie stoves. :lol: I am not sure what you meant by creosote dropping back into the stove to burn. Are you referring to wood burning? I will mount a 6" tee onto the outlet rather then an elbow so that I have easy access to clean ashes whenever I shut the stove down temporarily.

I'm curious to know what your Franco Belge efficiency rating is according to the manufacturer? The 715 and 515 are rated at 87% efficiency. I find that pretty hard to believe that it has efficiency ratings that are like baseheaters, especially when some Surdiac owners on this forum say that they average about 8 to 12 hours burn time with coal. I am sure William would chime away on that Surdiac rating. I went shopping through the classified ads for a used baseheater at an affordable price, but couldn't find one in time, as there was one selling (craigslist-$300) in RI that was sold in 3 days after its initial post. I am no where near the RI border. Wanted to see on that up and coming weekend, and then it got sold. So I went after what is supposedly the next best thing. A large Surdiac, and at a price that I could handle!

Although this Surdiac looks like it can only hold about 20-25lbs of coal at a time in it's firebox, will I be able to load wood much higher than that shallow coal fire box (above the front glass loading door) when burning all wood? Should I remove the coal fire box/bed when burning wood?
2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:02 am

Regarding efficiency. Yes I do believe these stoves are as efficient as claimed. Those numbers are from government testing labs. The German DIN lab found the Franco Belge to be over 90 percent efficient. I think the numbers for the Surdiac were from a French lab.

The reasons for the high efficiency are:
Shallow fire box enclosed within the body of the stove to lessen heat loss from that fire box. Being shallow and of low capacity it has to be run hotter thus burning more of initial gasses and carbon monoxide that would go un- burnt in other designs.

Pre-conditioned coal from the hopper that feeds hot coal at charging time, some of which is already coke and the rest rapidly reaches ignition temperature which lessens the lower efficiency recovery time.

Extensive heat exchange area to keep stack temperatures low.

The efficiency comes at the cost of much shorter tending intervals. About 8 hours instead of 12. Actual outputs are lower than claimed by the importers.

The antique base heaters reach their high efficiency by:
A round brick lined fire box which by its nature is more effective in distributing air more evenly than other shapes. The brick lining lowers heat loss in the fire box keeping it hotter for better more complete combustion. The depth of the fire box allows extended tending times.

The extended flue passages make for more efficient heat exchange by better utilizing all of the stoves surfaces.

The design I like best, though never tried myself, is the design of William's Glenwood no. 9. The flue gas is routed down around the fully enclosed fire box to the base and then up and out. Fire box temperatures should be really high for complete burn yet still retain heat exchange efficiency.

No you can't load wood in a Surdiac above the the glass in the door. If you want to burn wood there are much better stoves to do it.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: joeq On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Congratulations (?) on your acquisition of your Surdiac. Now there're 2 of us in the same boat! :) I've got the smaller Surdiac (513), and if you want to see my concerns, go to my profile page and check out my posts. A lot of people here have given some good advice. I wouldn't even consider trying to burn wood, even with the hopper removed. Don't think it would throw any heat, due to the design, and the size of the box. But to make it run properly, you'll need to acquire all the missing pieces. Won't work trying to cut corners. When set up exactly as specified, it'll work well with-in the limitations of the stove itself. You need to decide what you actually want out of it, before you go spending any time or money on it. (I thought this site provided access to others posts. I guess not .sorry)
Last edited by joeq on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:21 pm

franco b wrote:Regarding efficiency. Yes I do believe these stoves are as efficient as claimed. Those numbers are from government testing labs. The German DIN lab found the Franco Belge to be over 90 percent efficient. I think the numbers for the Surdiac were from a French lab.

The reasons for the high efficiency are:
Shallow fire box enclosed within the body of the stove to lessen heat loss from that fire box. Being shallow and of low capacity it has to be run hotter thus burning more of initial gasses and carbon monoxide that would go un- burnt in other designs.

Pre-conditioned coal from the hopper that feeds hot coal at charging time, some of which is already coke and the rest rapidly reaches ignition temperature which lessens the lower efficiency recovery time.

Extensive heat exchange area to keep stack temperatures low.

The efficiency comes at the cost of much shorter tending intervals. About 8 hours instead of 12. Actual outputs are lower than claimed by the importers.

The antique base heaters reach their high efficiency by:
A round brick lined fire box which by its nature is more effective in distributing air more evenly than other shapes. The brick lining lowers heat loss in the fire box keeping it hotter for better more complete combustion. The depth of the fire box allows extended tending times.

The extended flue passages make for more efficient heat exchange by better utilizing all of the stoves surfaces.

The design I like best, though never tried myself, is the design of William's Glenwood no. 9. The flue gas is routed down around the fully enclosed fire box to the base and then up and out. Fire box temperatures should be really high for complete burn yet still retain heat exchange efficiency.

No you can't load wood in a Surdiac above the the glass in the door. If you want to burn wood there are much better stoves to do it.
Wow over 90% efficiency! That is amazing! I wasn't sure if the Franco Belge also have a heat exchanger too. I am really eager to get this baby burning! I know that these stoves call for pea coal, however I don't have any pea. Of course I have rice for my alaska, but I also have about 30 gallons of nut. So I will try that first and keep a close eye on it so it doesn't over burn. Looking at the grates, I don't think rice coal would stay above the grates. It is just too small.

On a cold day (low 20's high teens), how many pounds of coal do you go through? What is your average main floor (floor where the stove is located) temperature? How many pounds of coal can your firebox hold (minus hopper)?

I plan on mounting a 6" tee on the stove's outlet flange, while capping the bottom of the tee and running six feet of pipe on the top of the tee and then a 90 elbow into the wall thimble. Should I go with the tee as plan or another elbow instead? I like the tee better because I can knock on the pipes a few times to knock some of the ash and clean out the pipes by removing the bottom cap off the tee. Which way would you go?
2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: joeq On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:25 pm

(Check your mail. I've PM'd you)
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:27 pm

joeq wrote:Congratulations (?) on your acquisition of your Surdiac. Now there're 2 of us in the same boat! :) I've got the smaller Surdiac (513), and if you want to see my concerns, go to my profile page and check out my posts. A lot of people here have given some good advice. I wouldn't even consider trying to burn wood, even with the hopper removed. Don't think it would throw any heat, due to the design, and the size of the box. But to make it run properly, you'll need to acquire all the missing pieces. Won't work trying to cut corners. When set up exactly as specified, it'll work well with-in the limitations of the stove itself. You need to decide what you actually want out of it, before you go spending any time or money on it.


I am looking to burn coal for most of the day while I'm away. And a late evening wood burn. I agree the fire box looks like it can only handle 2 nice pieces of wood. Maybe three. You got your 513 without some parts too as well? I check your older post.
2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:16 pm

2DeXtreMe wrote:On a cold day (low 20's high teens), how many pounds of coal do you go through? What is your average main floor (floor where the stove is located) temperature? How many pounds of coal can your firebox hold (minus hopper)?

I plan on mounting a 6" tee on the stove's outlet flange, while capping the bottom of the tee and running six feet of pipe on the top of the tee and then a 90 elbow into the wall thimble. Should I go with the tee as plan or another elbow instead? I like the tee better because I can knock on the pipes a few times to knock some of the ash and clean out the pipes by removing the bottom cap off the tee. Which way would you go?

I am running two stoves. On the lower level a Glenwood Modern Oak 114 and on the upper level the mid size Franco Belge. There are 3 sizes of Franco Belge. I burn about 25 pounds of coal in each stove in the really cold weather. In that very cold weather the upstairs temperature is only 66 to 68 degrees. It really should have the larger Franco there as it is about 1200 sq. ft. or more. I don't think the fire box holds more than about 15 pounds.

I would not bother about a tee and cleanout. I would just run the elbow. Take down and cleaning once a year is enough, especially with 6 inch pipe. You also have to clean the chimney bottom and hopefully run a brush up the chimney. Don't forget the clean outs on the back of the heat exchanger which is where most fly ash will accumulate.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:33 am

Franco,

Can you explain what you meant when you mentioned before that creosote entering in the stove and burning if I went with the 5" to 6" pipe reduce mounted on the outlet? How is that even possible?
2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

Re: Will I be able to burn the Surdiac 715 515?

PostBy: 2DeXtreMe On: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:37 am

joeq wrote:Congratulations (?) on your acquisition of your Surdiac. Now there're 2 of us in the same boat! :) I've got the smaller Surdiac (513), and if you want to see my concerns, go to my profile page and check out my posts. A lot of people here have given some good advice. I wouldn't even consider trying to burn wood, even with the hopper removed. Don't think it would throw any heat, due to the design, and the size of the box. But to make it run properly, you'll need to acquire all the missing pieces. Won't work trying to cut corners. When set up exactly as specified, it'll work well with-in the limitations of the stove itself. You need to decide what you actually want out of it, before you go spending any time or money on it. (I thought this site provided access to others posts. I guess not .sorry)



When I get it hooked up correctly, I will definitely report how it burn coal (currently nut) and wood. I have to admit that the wood burning in that small fire box is going to be challenging. I think I will try burning wood with the fire box removed.
2DeXtreMe
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska channing 3
Hand Fed Coal Stove: surdiac 715
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska & Surdiac
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III & 715

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