School System Boiler Replacement.

School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:18 pm

I was just at lunch reading my local newspaper and read that the town is requesting proposals for replacing the 50 year old boilers at our two Elementary schools. The thing that really caught my attention was the cost estimate released by the town.

The larger school, which is nearly 50,000 square feet: $ 1,800,000 dollars.

The smaller school, not sure of square footage: $ 1,300,000 dollars.

Again, I have not seen the scope of work or have any knowledge of the work needed, but THREE MILLION dollars seems excessive in this budget environment or any other in my opinion.

What ballpark figure can anyone here estimate if the existing oil-fired boilers were replaced with coal-fired boilers like an EFM for example?

Thanks!
EarthWindandFire
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Lil' Heater.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 75.
Other Heating: Oil and Natural Gas.

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 pm

Just like in MA - when getting prices for contractor work, you always add 4 more zeros to the price tag, especially when a school is involved. I don't get it either ....

People wonder why the country is broke. :roll: :sick:
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: Phil May On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:20 pm

I hope they are replacing all the plumbing and fixtures for that amount.
Phil May
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 700
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 700

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Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:23 pm

Usually with state jobs, things get replaced that DON'T need replacing with more inferior parts that fail sooner ....
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:14 pm

Could you imagine the amount of copper piping that would take?? I'm sure they wouldn't consider pex.. :mad: ... That would be the logical thing to do..
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:14 pm

I wonder how many btu's are needed to heat a school?

I would simply cut out the old boiler(s) and plumb in a refurbished EFM 1300 and save the town a couple MILLION dollars!
EarthWindandFire
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Lil' Heater.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 75.
Other Heating: Oil and Natural Gas.

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: oliver power On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:23 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:I was just at lunch reading my local newspaper and read that the town is requesting proposals for replacing the 50 year old boilers at our two Elementary schools. The thing that really caught my attention was the cost estimate released by the town.

The larger school, which is nearly 50,000 square feet: $ 1,800,000 dollars.

The smaller school, not sure of square footage: $ 1,300,000 dollars.

Again, I have not seen the scope of work or have any knowledge of the work needed, but THREE MILLION dollars seems excessive in this budget environment or any other in my opinion.

What ballpark figure can anyone here estimate if the existing oil-fired boilers were replaced with coal-fired boilers like an EFM for example?

Thanks!
I've worked at a boiler plant where it wasn't uncommon to manufacture $100,000,000.00 boiler systems
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:28 pm

Yeah, I don't think copper pipe for that one. Actually having been a part of that kind of operation, that seems like it is about right for a new boiler install. Actually kinda low like they missed some thing. They thing you gotta understand is what it takes to do the job. In EFM terms that would be 25- efm 520's set up in a row to provide the right heat output. You have the initial engineering, the state oversite (SED), the bid process, the awarding of bids, the submittal process, the acceptance with changes to the proposed equipment by the engineering firm. All that is handled by the management firm or General contractor depending on the job requirements. Once the job begins, you have the demolition phase, which has to be pretty large because a boiler needed to heat an old at least 50 years old building that was probably insulated to the value of the times was and still is pretty big. There might be asbestos involved ( cringe). Just getting the site properly prepped for a new boiler install is a large undertaking.
Installing the new boiler system would be an expensive venture also. Nowadays they run several smaller high efficiency boilers in a primary secondary arrangement. The 6" to 12" mains would have to be rearranged to facilitate this. Much of the work is done off site to use shop facilities. Add the new electrical upgrade power wise, and a whole new control system to smooth out the highs and lows of the temperature fluctuations and the project gets bigger and bigger. The customer isn't getting the cheapest boilers on the market either. They are getting the above average ones specified by the engineering firm. They are called SPEC GRADE. All the new pumping upgrades. Can't put new boilers in without getting the latest and greatest pumping / VSD combos. Not taco 007's. Maybe 25-50 hp three phase in parallel. Then there is the refinishing of the boiler room. The floors, walls, and ceilings get the full treatment. All areas are brought up to fire code. The system is tested and certified by the proper agency.
All said and done, that project is actually quite the good deal by that school district. You have to consider that in Connecticutt, all labor to work on a school or government project has to hold a workman's license. That means certified welders, electricians, steam and piping fitters, carpenters. All workman. That doesn't mean just Union either. The going rate for that kind of labor in Connecticutt is around $75 per hour on average. That is the cost to the contractor. Add 10% profit and 15% overhead to that figure and the labor is costing over $100 per hour. That is a minimum figure. it doesn't take long paying 10 men 40k per week to bring that $1.3 million figure right into focus. When it is all over, that figure is covered by the savings of installation of a high efficiency boiler system with all the bells and whistles. They usually don't put them in unless it's cost effective. There is usually more involved that a simple boiler change out. There are additional items included. Sort of like a political bill. :)
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 700. Van Wert 1200.
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:15 pm

Makes sense - typical government bureaucracy. Firms hired to overlook the firms overlooking the firm overlookers. :roll: :lol:

Nearly 100% of all MA contractor jobs are union. Goes without saying - just look at our majority political party. Few non-union contractors get bids. Everything in MA you need to multiply the projected costs by a factor of 10. By the time it's finished, there will be overruns in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the job. Guaranteed.
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:28 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:What ballpark figure can anyone here estimate if the existing oil-fired boilers were replaced with coal-fired boilers like an EFM for example?


Using a crazy estimate of 20 units needed and say 20K per unit to install which is double the unit cost on the pallet you're only up to $400K....

I think what you need to find out is what they are installing, are they replacing the whole system? Is it a cogen system?
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:37 pm

Would it be a fair first wild guess to speculate that the 50,000 square foot school building requires a boiler capable of somewhere around 1.5 million to 2 million BTU's per hour of output?

Sounds like a job for a bank of 5 or 6 EFM 900's.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:03 pm

I would think more. Remember all the big windows in the classes at school?
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 700. Van Wert 1200.
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:08 pm

Scottscoaled wrote:I would think more. Remember all the big windows in the classes at school?


That's true, the outside walls are virtually all windows. How about a bank of 5 or 6 EFM 1300's?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:17 pm

lsayre wrote:
Scottscoaled wrote:I would think more. Remember all the big windows in the classes at school?


That's true, the outside walls are virtually all windows. How about a bank of 5 or 6 EFM 1300's?

What's a 1300 rated for? 45 lbs per hour? How about five or six AHS1000's? Might be more in line.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 700. Van Wert 1200.
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: School System Boiler Replacement.

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:22 am

I would never feel comfortable recommending an AHS made boiler. That's why I mentioned EFM in my original post. As a proponent of renewed coal use, better to go the safe route with something like an underfeed stoker or inclined-bed stoker like the monstrous Keystoker KG-22.
EarthWindandFire
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Lil' Heater.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 75.
Other Heating: Oil and Natural Gas.

Visit Lehigh Anthracite