Diary of a Surdiac

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:18 pm

This may sound bizarre, is it possible with a closed mpd slowing the heated exhaust and telling the sensor directly above the flue that the stove is hot hence closing the auto damper then opening because of a cool stove etc. kind of a yo-yo effect. You stated the manufacturer recommends a baro, field controls sells a 5 inch baro and I am curious if this is necessary to have "both" of the auto damper controls work properly. I would start with recommended equipment in order to eliminate possible self induced issues. I speak from experience and in no way pointing a finger, your commitment is applauded. :)
Last edited by michaelanthony on Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly coat rack
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:37 pm

What happens if you want to burn 20 pounds per day? Will the thermostat setting let you? It seems that set on one it is burning all out.

The Franco Belge stoves have both shaking and slicing with slicing being the most effective and most used but giving it a little shake after slicing almost always settles the bed more and feeds a bit more coal. You can't do that with your stove but you could try poking from above with the poker after slicing to better settle the bed and encourage a fuller bed for longer burn time.

Try for longer burn time with a less hot fire, even minimal, and then work up from there. Both the Franco Belge and Surdiac rely on the same principal of a shallow coal bed burned hotter and coupled with effective heat exchange to achieve the high efficiency they are capable off. The shallow coal bed will require almost no secondary air and if you are having trouble with a low burn it could be the secondary air openings are too much and hindering air through the coal bed at low settings.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: warminmn On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:20 pm

franco knows these stoves well, I would try a lot of his suggestions. I will add it was mentioned to try without a hopper and that might work too.

You asked about ash buildup. I clean behind my heat exchange (or whatever its called), sometime in the middle of the season but I do it with it running, not a super duper good job of it. I have a vertical pipe where my damper is and just hit that once or twice a year. I have a horizontal run too and that is my only place ash builds up enough to be checked often, but my draft will usually suck most ash thru it. I ran both a baro and mpd for a couple seasons but ditched the baro last year. Just a mpd now. I vary its setting by the wind. I might waste a bag or two of coal but my stove is a lot more responsive without it. I burn nut coal. i did run some pea when I first had it but nut is usually what my dealer has so thats what I burn. I do have one advantage I dont think you have and that is I have a side door and front door. I do most internal work thru the side.
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

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Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:28 pm

michaelanthony wrote:This may sound bizarre, is it possible with a closed mpd slowing the heated exhaust and telling the sensor directly above the flue that the stove is hot hence closing the auto damper then opening because of a cool stove etc. kind of a yo-yo effect.

M/T (Mike/Tony) I'm not sure about the yoyo effect, but I guess anything is possible. still leaning towards the baro, next season, (depending how the un-clogged MPD performs)
.
franco b wrote:What happens if you want to burn 20 pounds per day? Will the thermostat setting let you? It seems that set on one it is burning all out.
Try for longer burn time with a less hot fire, even minimal, and then work up from there. Both the Franco Belge and Surdiac rely on the same principal of a shallow coal bed burned hotter and coupled with effective heat exchange to achieve the high efficiency they are capable off.

Been on the lowest settings possible, (less than 1 on the thermostat), to no avail.
Man, you guys are hard core NEPA members. :)
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:14 pm

joeq wrote:Been on the lowest settings possible, (less than 1 on the thermostat), to no avail.

Do you mean that you can't get a slower fire? If so then the thermostat is too far open.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:37 pm

No franco, my dial will register from 0 to 9. When my stove is warmed up and running fine, (say 400*), if the temps outside are in the 20s, I usually will adjust it from 3/4 to 1+ 1/2. When the stove is set around 1, the intake damper is barely cracked. if the grates are fresh and open, it'll run fine like this, as long as I riddle them every 2-3 hrs.(Also the MPD will be adjusted just passed closed to maintain a -04 draft). No setting changes necessary .When I go to bed for the nite, I'll give it a good scraping, possibly M/T the ash pan, and fill the hopper. when I set the thermostat any lower, the fire will quickly die out. (Say and hour or so, if I let it. I'll usually open it up to about 1 to rekindle the fire.) I don't believe it'll run any lower, and the gaskets are new, so I don't think the stove is sucking air. I can make it burn low, and high. the funny thing is, I don't see why there are any numbers on my stove higher than 4 or 5. If I ran it there, I think the stove would melt down.
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:57 pm

I would close off the secondary air holes in the door, perhaps by just laying a strip of gasket there and see if the stove will then burn slower. you should easily get down to burning 20 pounds per day without the stove going out.. Even at 40 pounds you should go 8 hours before riddling. The only other explanation I can think of is as Lightning suggested that air is bypassing the coal bed. 2 to 3 hours is not acceptable.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:51 pm

I have been able to go 8 hrs, when the coal bed is new and ash free. But after a week or 2 of running, the performance drops off. I don't believe there's any secondary air affecting it, and even the manufacturer says the individual glass panes on the door, (which are loose), allow heat to radiate through the frt of the stove, accounting for some extra heat.
I just cleaned and loaded the firebox with some wood scraps in preparation of the next "blast-off" after I get back from Christmas traveling. With the entire horizontal stove pipe thoroughly evacuated of accumulated ash, and there was a substantial amount around the MPD, I'm hoping for better results.
Take care for now guys. :)
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:37 am

Of course I couldn't resist. Even tho we'll be traveling tomorrow for a couple days of Christmas, I decided to fire the stove last nite. (Hey, the temps dropped to the 20s, so that's incentive enuff for me :) )
The "refire" went well, even tho I started the wood scraps at about 10:30 pm. By 1am, I had filled the hopper and the stove was roaring. I've noticed when the stove is fresh on a new fire, the adjustments for the intake and exhaust are a little off, so I left it a little "hot" when I went to bed. It went a good solid 7 hrs unattended, and could've gone more. How much? I don't know, cause the wife got to it B4 me. It'll only run for a couple days, cause we'll be out of town at Christmas nite to the next day, but I thought it would be a nicer Christmas morning with the warmth of coal, rather than the mechanical humming of a cold oil furnace.($).
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:27 pm

Back from holiday traveling. Ended up "not" staying overnite, and returning to my stove, which was unattended for approx. 8 hrs. Before I left, the stove was running strong and hot. (Had been for a couple days.) I scraped the grates clean, M/Td the ash pan, and refilled the hopper, in preparation of many hrs of neglect. Remember, even my horizontal stove pipe was now (for the 1st time), void of any accumulated ash anywhere, even around the MPD. This was my most optimistic accomplishment, hoping for longer burn times.
I returned from my 8 hr Christmas excursion, :shock: ....to a "DEAD" stove. :blowup:

I don't get it. Even the hopper was still 1/2 full of unburned coal, meaning it probably wasn't running more than a few hrs, before it died. My settings hadn't varied much from normal either. I do notice now that the MPD has been scraped clean of ash, I can't get the draft any lower than -.06-07., even with the MPD slammed shut. As a matter of fact, the other nite I went to bed, "with" the MPD closed totally, (and the draft recording a somewhat high -.06), and awoke the next morning (approx. 6-7 hrs) to a fire "almost" dead, but recoverable.
So far, to sum up this seasons lessons, I'm not so sure the Blaschac coal was any different than the coal contractors brand this season I'm using. Also, even tho there was a noticeable accumulation of ash in my stove pipe, it's not the culprit to my inconsistent burn times. I'll end up using this stove this way for a while, not expecting it to go any longer than 3-4 hrs with-out riddling. I believe my last hope of any improvements will be to "somehow" add a baro-damper behind this beast, as the manufacturer has recommended from the start. In conclusion...HAPPY NEW YEAR, to come. :)
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: Lightning On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:38 pm

What is your draft pressure reading with a dead fire??

Lets get back to the basics.
The coal WILL burn when ignited and provided ample combustion air.

Its going out for one of three reasons..
1) Its choking from ash underneath, and the fire can't get fresh oxygen.
2) The draft pressure dies, and the fire can't get fresh oxygen.
3) The grates are choking with ash and the primary air is bypassing the coal bed.

I don't know why else it would die.

Humor me and block anywhere the air coming in under the fire could make its way up over the fire without passing thru the coal bed. But don't block the secondary air. It could be the holy grail of your issue :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:12 pm

When I got home last nite, the stove still had some heat in it, Lee. So I believe the manometer was reading about -.04. (Which is were it's suppose to be.). Like I mentioned above tho, now that the stove pipe is clear of ash, it won't go below -.06-07 with mpd fully closed. (Which of course means the exhaust is still leaking past). Would this account for the short burn time? I could see if the ash was accumulating very quickly from too hot a fire. I'm not believing that, tho. Was doing the same thing, even when the draft was lower, with the clogged pipe.
You also mentioned it could be because the draft is going away. seems there alot of draft, that it could afford to go lower, but still could support combustion. Don't know, but the Baro should tell all. My last ditch effort before.... :rambo2:(insert a picture of my stove here.)
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: Lightning On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:15 pm

joeq wrote:Would this account for the short burn time? I could see if the ash was accumulating very quickly from too hot a fire. I'm not believing that, tho.
I don't think so partner. It seems like your fire is starving for air. Is there a lot of unburned coal in it after it goes out? Is it burning extremely hot? Franco said you should get 12 hours without fuss.

joeq wrote:You also mentioned it could be because the draft is going away. seems there alot of draft, that it could afford to go lower, but still could support combustion.
Yer right, you have plenty to support combustion. Mine will support combustion at -.005 I realize our appliances are vastly different but the rules apply. Coal will burn, if it has oxygen getting to it.

joeq wrote:Don't know, but the Baro should tell all.
I admire your perseverance but the baro is not likely to help for two reasons. 1) it limits draft... 2) Since you have a -.04 at a dead fire, drafting isn't the problem. Your automatic damper is trying to feed the fire as it cools, which is why you find it open after the dead fire. The air its letting in must be getting routed around the coal bed. Its my best guess.

Keep us posted on your progress partner :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: lewis On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:50 pm

The threads kinda long to read from the beginning my thoughts are your thermostatic flap isn't working or you got it set too low or your not shaking it right. If memory servers me right a Surdiac is like a Franco Belge or a Victory,,, a hopper stove with baffles that run to an outlet for the stack. You need a good draft. other thought is the gates are all plugged up cause your the guy that tried to burn Rice in it. I dont know just some random thoughts.

Should burn 8 - 10 hrs easy between shakes and never go out.
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Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Old Model Magnum

Re: Diary of a Surdiac

PostBy: joeq On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:10 pm

Lightning wrote:Humor me and block anywhere the air coming in under the fire could make its way up over the fire without passing thru the coal bed. But don't block the secondary air. It could be the holy grail of your issue :lol:


Next time I lose the fire, Lee, I'll try to block off the areas you noted above. What could I use in such an "extreme" heat environment, to insulate these ares? (wouldn't these be considered "secondary" air?)
joeq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Surdiac Gotha 513
Stove/Furnace Make: Oil fired
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride

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