LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: gambler On: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:15 am

I agree that something is not right. I have never felt any air coming from my stove that I would consider cool or cold. Most of the time I can't even hear the fan running unless my feed rate is above 70.
gambler
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: pvolcko On: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:58 pm

Alright, one last thing. :)

Go to the MAX setting and leave it there for 30-45 minutes. This will force the stoker to run at the speed defined by MAX, so you can see what the fire looks like on the grate. The goal is to have roughly 1-1.5 inches of ash on the end of the grate, no red hot coals coming off the grate. If there is more ash than that, then increase the MAX setting by a few points and let it run for another 30 minutes. Check again and adjust as necessary until you get the right amount of ash. You will likely end up in the range between 40 and 50 for a setting. Once you've got it dialed in, go back to the round robin display and let it run for 2-3 hours to settle back at the setpoint temperature. See what happens. If you think there is a problem still, please do call us. Maybe it is just a matter of describing some things in more detail, maybe there is really something wrong. Either way, it is more likely we'll get things straightened out on the phone at this point. :)
pvolcko
 

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: coalstoves On: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:12 pm

Fiddling with the feed rates and running the temps up is just delaying solving the problem in my opinion . Not trying to cause problems but come on something ain't right .

sauerzbr wrote:Checked the stove this morning. I had set the temp set to 70 degrees overnight. Thermo read 70 degrees and the fans felt like they were running full blast. When the room is at set temp for a long period of time, is it normal for the fans to be on what seems to be a high speed? It was blowing nothing but cool air, didn't really feel any warmth to it.



sauerzbr wrote:Did some more testing with holding the thermostat in front of the stove and after a good period of time, the stove blowers did slow down. Thermo was reading in the 90's for a long time before those blower even slowed a bit

coalstoves
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman and Liberty
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnum and Victory 700

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Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: WNY On: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:37 pm

Does the Thermostat Controller have a FAN HOLD (if you hold it in too long) or set it?
I know mine does and you can adjust the fan % speed with it and run the fans separately at any given speed.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: pvolcko On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:41 am

WNY, The TS2 has only automatic fan speed control. TS1 thermostats have both automatic and manual fan speed control.

Coalstoves, the sections that you quote demonstrate that sauerzbr's control is working as designed. After putting the thermo in the hot air stream (it was reading 90 degrees, a 20 degree jump above setpoint) and forcing the feedrate to more or less jump to 0, the fans started to slow down and eventually stop. It took a while for this slow down and stop to happen because of that delay in the automatic fan speed control logic I spoke of. Normally, when FR is allowed to change based on slow room temperature changes the fan speed delay is not a factor. However, when FR changes fast or in a jump, the fan speed will be slow to react to the change in FR. This is by design and has been in place since the very first Coal-trol was sold. The delay is there because it takes a while for the fuel already on the grate to burn off and to bleed off all the stored heat in the body of the stove, at least for negative jumps in FR. For positive jumps the delay is also there, the idea being that it takes a while for the fuel to get fed onto the grate and start burning fully and to heat up the body of the stove.

Also, we do recognize that some people would like adjustments added to make fan speeds be slower in the low to medium feedrate range (we do listen, really we do :) ), in order to reduce noise or increase outlet air temperature. This is a feature included in our next version of the thermostat software; there is an adjustable setting to control at what FR the fan first starts, higher settings increase outlet air temp. Unfortunately, we do not yet know when the new version will be released to the public (it's undergoing final testing now), but as we've offered in the past, if people want to update their thermostats to this new software it can be done for a moderate fee. The fee for the update to this new version has not been set yet.
pvolcko
 

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: av8r On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:18 am

pvolcko wrote:WNY, The TS2 has only automatic fan speed control. TS1 thermostats have both automatic and manual fan speed control.

Coalstoves, the sections that you quote demonstrate that sauerzbr's control is working as designed. After putting the thermo in the hot air stream (it was reading 90 degrees, a 20 degree jump above setpoint) and forcing the feedrate to more or less jump to 0, the fans started to slow down and eventually stop. It took a while for this slow down and stop to happen because of that delay in the automatic fan speed control logic I spoke of. Normally, when FR is allowed to change based on slow room temperature changes the fan speed delay is not a factor. However, when FR changes fast or in a jump, the fan speed will be slow to react to the change in FR. This is by design and has been in place since the very first Coal-trol was sold. The delay is there because it takes a while for the fuel already on the grate to burn off and to bleed off all the stored heat in the body of the stove, at least for negative jumps in FR. For positive jumps the delay is also there, the idea being that it takes a while for the fuel to get fed onto the grate and start burning fully and to heat up the body of the stove.

Also, we do recognize that some people would like adjustments added to make fan speeds be slower in the low to medium feedrate range (we do listen, really we do :) ), in order to reduce noise or increase outlet air temperature. This is a feature included in our next version of the thermostat software; there is an adjustable setting to control at what FR the fan first starts, higher settings increase outlet air temp. Unfortunately, we do not yet know when the new version will be released to the public (it's undergoing final testing now), but as we've offered in the past, if people want to update their thermostats to this new software it can be done for a moderate fee. The fee for the update to this new version has not been set yet.


This sounds like an excellent upgrade to the TS2 software. Will you announce on this forum when it has been released? Need any beta testers?

Thanks
av8r
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Hearth with twin turbos (sounds like it)
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hearth model with twin turbos

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: coalstoves On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:03 pm

pvolcko wrote:Coalstoves, the sections that you quote demonstrate that sauerzbr's control is working as designed. It took a while for this slow down and stop to happen because of that delay in the automatic fan speed control logic I spoke of. Normally, when FR is allowed to change based on slow room temperature changes the fan speed delay is not a factor. However, when FR changes fast or in a jump, the fan speed will be slow to react to the change in FR. This is by design and has been in place since the very first Coal-trol was sold. The delay is there because it takes a while for the fuel already on the grate to burn off and to bleed off all the stored heat in the body of the stove, at least for negative jumps in FR. For positive jumps the delay is also there, the idea being that it takes a while for the fuel to get fed onto the grate and start burning fully and to heat up the body of the stove.


I'm not saying anymore on the subject other than I find the situations sauerzbr describes as unacceptable performance, if blowing cold air around the room is par for the course I would be very very unhappy with my stove .

I still don't think something is right though because nobody else has had a complaint like that here and it is indeed a point to complain about, in my opinion bad enough to warrant returning the stove but I guess that’s just me .

I hope you guys can get this straightened out, if asked in the future about the Pro's and Con's of the LL CT combination I would point them to this thread as something to consider before deciding .

Not to be mean spirited but a Big Thumbs Down on this one . :(
coalstoves
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman and Liberty
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnum and Victory 700

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: sauerzbr On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:06 pm

I want everyone to know that I spoke to the Leisure Line factory and the CoalTrol factory on Friday.

Both parties were nothing buy polite, informative and concerned with helping me resolve the issue. This was my first contact with them and I couldn't be more pleased with their reception. Please don't take anything in this thread as negative toward either of these manufacturers.

Please take into consideration that this is my first coal stove and my only experience is with wood and oil stoves. I may just be out of line with how I think this should work.

With regard to my test, running up and down the temps so quickly, I'm not sure I'm taking into consideration the delayed reaction in the programming.

After talking with both factories, again they were both GREAT in supporting their products and are working with me and are more than happy to fix anything to assure I am a satisfied customer. To me, this is a minor issue, overall I am thrilled with the performance of my pocono stove. It is holding a perfect temp and we love the consitent temp throughout the room.

I am going to run longer term testing of my own as I proved to myself that the fans will go down in speed during my forced short term conditions. The only question is the delayed reaction and I'm starting to believe with my long term tests, it's going to prove it works as designed.

Just maybe this unit knows better than I how much air it needs to move in order to keep the room at temp. Keep in mind that the room is not waivering from the setting I have on the thermostat. That says something in itself.

Coaltrol and Leisure Line.... It was a pleasure to speak with you prior to making my purchase, making the purchase was a delight, Karen was Extremely helpful in making my decision and my first call to both of you reiniforced your commitment to the customer.

Everyone, please know that everything is fine here on my end. Even with what "I" think as to the blowers blowing to much air... It's such a small issue and definitely not one that would change my decision in purchasing this unit.

I will report back my findings on my long term testing where I will not force any environment changes by moving the thermostat.
sauerzbr
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono Top Vent

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: Matthaus On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:24 pm

coalstoves wrote: Not to be mean spirited but a Big Thumbs Down on this one . :(


I have to offer an opinion on this subject since there seems to be one perspective that has already written this situation off as an unacceptable example of customer service.

I have been watching this thread for a while and have seen repeatedly that the reps involved have asked sauerzbr to call and discuss the problem or perceived problem in real time on the phone. For us to make an assessment of the value of a particular stove and or control based on some exchange on this free Forum is IMO not a fair thing to do. I have not seen anyone say that the problem is for sure not a problem, and I know from personal experience that the fine folks at both Leisure Line and Automation correct will not rest till the customer is satisfied.

Just the fact that these folks (LL and AC) are on this forum and take their own time to offer advice on all situations, not just those involving their products is IMO a great thing. Where are the Harman and Liberty reps on this forum? My personal experience with Harman is that they refer all customer service to the dealer network and will not answer any questions regardless of the circumstances.

So please let's be fair and not form negative opinions till the facts are all known and complete. I do realize that this is a free Forum and all are welcome to express their opinions I just fell it is unfair to do so when the two companies involved are obviously offering to work with the customer.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now I feel better, thanks for the opportunity to share my perspective. :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: Matthaus On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:25 pm

OOPs guess I was a little late on that one! :lol: :oops:
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: xackley On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:36 pm

ditto on support for the Coal-trol and Leisure Line. As I have my stove installed in my Shop (walk out basement on a hillside home) , and the Shop being the only place I smoke, any more, I have been using the stove for experimentation and entertainment. There is no question that the set up works as designed and recommended. Above that, they both have been very helpful supplying information on Current (amps) draws and performance recommendation to allow me to determine if my experiment is "safe".

One feature request would be that the FR would be part of the Round-robin. I might be wearing out the Setup button :shock:
xackley
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: nwaelder On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:41 pm

coalstoves wrote:
pvolcko wrote:
I'm not saying anymore on the subject other than I find the situations sauerzbr describes as unacceptable performance, if blowing cold air around the room is par for the course I would be very very unhappy with my stove .
I still don't think something is right though because nobody else has had a complaint like that here and it is indeed a point to complain about, in my opinion bad enough to warrant returning the stove but I guess that’s just me .
I hope you guys can get this straightened out, if asked in the future about the Pro's and Con's of the LL CT combination I would point them to this thread as something to consider before deciding .
Not to be mean spirited but a Big Thumbs Down on this one . :(


Well... well... Coalstoves has weighed in with his "most valuable" opinion.
I've watched this thread for a week or so and I must say I am baffled... and annoyed...

    1.) The persons supporting CT and LL are not anonymous forum members ... we are real reachable people... (A basic indicator of credibility on this and any internet forum.)

    2.) The persons supporting CT and LL are professionals who work in the solid-fuel heating business for a living... (another indicator of credibility.) We know more about our product(s) than anyone else... both the good and the shortcomings... guess why? It's our job! It matters what we say and how we say it... We do not wing it or guess... we formulate advice with such things as legal liability in mind and strive to give useful and correct information...

Now Coalstoves, you "... find the situations sauerzbr describes as unacceptable performance..." Are you a customer of LL or AC?
I see you claim to have a Harman and Liberty. I say claim because no one knows who you are... Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself and all your expertise ... You don't have to... as an anonymous keyboard warrior your soapbox is as big as anyone else's. However for the reasons listed above your credibility is zero.

My apologies in advance for presuming to lecture the good members of the forum.
Last edited by nwaelder on Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
nwaelder
 

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: spc On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:22 pm

From personal experience let me also say both Leisure Line & Coal-trol product support is exceptional. I have used this open forum, PM, email & telephone to communicate with these guys. Thank you Leisure Line & Coal-trol.
spc
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: coalstoves On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:28 pm

nwaelder wrote:
coalstoves wrote:
pvolcko wrote:
I'm not saying anymore on the subject other than I find the situations sauerzbr describes as unacceptable performance, if blowing cold air around the room is par for the course I would be very very unhappy with my stove .
I still don't think something is right though because nobody else has had a complaint like that here and it is indeed a point to complain about, in my opinion bad enough to warrant returning the stove but I guess that’s just me .
I hope you guys can get this straightened out, if asked in the future about the Pro's and Con's of the LL CT combination I would point them to this thread as something to consider before deciding .
Not to be mean spirited but a Big Thumbs Down on this one . :(


Well... well... Coalstoves has weighed in with his "most valuable" opinion.
As an anonymous keyboard warrior your soapbox is as big as anyone else's.
However your credibility is zero.


Now Coalstoves, you "... find the situations sauerzbr describes as unacceptable performance..." YES

Are you a customer of LL or AC?... No! I Chose the Harman

I see you claim to have a Harman and Liberty. ...That is correct

Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself and all your expertise... What would you like to Know

My apologies in advance for presuming to lecture the good members of the forum. ...Accepted


It appears your customer is Happy and that’s what is important, and I reiterate not to be mean spirited
coalstoves
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman and Liberty
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnum and Victory 700

Re: LL Pocono blower fans?? Run on high all the time?

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:39 pm

coalstoves: When a company representative is helping one of their customers on a public forum, uninformed [not knowing what conversations and emails have been exchanged] opinions that are obstructive and argumentative are not doing the customer with the problem any good.

There actually is nothing wrong with the coaltrol. It is operating the way it was designed. The air off the stove feels cool, because the air is pulling the last little bit of heat off the stove body. Our body is 98*, if we stand in front of an air current that is 80* it feels cool. The Leisureline stove is running at a very low setting in a house that isn't requiring a lot of heat. If the same stove was in a big drafty house, the feed rate would be higher, the stove box hotter, just to keep up with BTU demands. In a smaller house, with the thermostat satisfied, the blowers will run until the last of the heat is pulled off the stove body, This is efficient use of the coal heat. The new owner of the Pocanno stove was not aware of how the fans were programed, The CoalTrol designer and company rep has explained this now.

I'm moving this thread to the Leisure line forum.

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

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