Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:42 pm

Pacowy wrote: ... I'm not aware that anyone in Watertown refused entry, or wished to refuse entry, to any SWAT team ...


I'm fairly confident that abject fear of ones government is every bit as much of a motivator as is respect for ones government. Besides, in this dumbed down day and age, most can not be assumed to have any knowledge of, or interest in, their rights and the exercise or protection thereof. Expedience and the desire to return to the status quo of a peaceful couch potato existence as soon as is practical dictates that in an emergency one should act to permit the government to trample over them rather than grumble over technicalities, as long as one presumes that in so doing they can quickly get back on the couch and turn the TV back on.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:45 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Flyer5 wrote: I don't feel it to be hypocritical at all. While people there may be ok with it this time. What happens next time when it get pushed a little further and a little further? Entering a home without permission just because of an unlocked door seems to be a little over the edge. If people were ok giving permission that is fine. If people felt they had no choice but to give permission that is not. Only time will tell.


I understand that "outside" people have legitimate concerns about their rights, and may not easily be able to reconcile those concerns with what they've seen. When they try to resolve that by simply declaring the people who experienced the incident to be "idiots", "pinheads" or otherwise wrong, they are taking away the voice of the people who experienced it in a way that they do not want applied to themselves. If you don't like the term hypocrisy, please feel free to suggest another word.

Entering a home because of an unlocked door is blatantly unreasonable under normal conditions, and even if you were operating a meth lab and your lawyer was asleep I understand it would pretty much be automatic that evidence obtained in the unreasonable search would be tossed.

In this case, there was a well-publicized "shelter in place" order that repeatedly was announced and broadcast, and which included a protocol of locking doors and opening them only for properly-identified law enforcement personnel. A door that isn't locked violates the protocol and provides either an opportunity for the subject to enter or evidence that he already did. Under the prevailing circumstances, I haven't heard of anyone there who had a problem with this. A search of whatever space is accessible via the unlocked door is needed as part of locating the subject and securing that space and on that basis is "reasonable" as required by the Fourth Amendment. It doesn't establish any precedent for other circumstances, or mean the gov't can prosecute the occupants for their meth lab.

Mike


Please don't add words that I have not used or implied. I actually appreciate your opinion on the matter and do not consider you or any of the people out there as such. I hear people complain about the govt in Mass all the time. And the reason it just gets worse is because people fail to question these matters. Like I said if it turns out that this was the best and safest way for the task at hand and no one is upset or rights violated then so be it. I am not judging any one. Just voicing my concerns of the matter.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:48 pm

Dave -

I didn't mean to imply that you had used those words - they were not from you. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite


Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:02 pm

jpete wrote:
I'm On Fire wrote:Well then, if you are perfectly confident in your driving and can do so without dangering yourself or others and are not stuck in a ditch somewhere then they aren't going to pull you over now are they? They'd have no reason to. BUT, if you slide off the road, get stuck in a snow drift and end up obstructing traffic or tying up emergency personnel or impeding snow removal I can almost guarantee you will be written a summons for going against the "State of Emergency". You are right, they can't stop you from going out in a bad storm. They do hope you use a little common sense to not be out. I myself have two great four wheel drive vehicles, One is a Subaru and the other is a Dodge. But you know what? When the state issues an emergency due to bad weather I STAY HOME. Why? BECAUSE I HATE DRIVING IN THE *censored* even though I am perfectly capable and confident that I can. I also hate snow. I'd much rather be at home playing with my kids, hanging out with my wife, watching TV and playing video games.


I stay home as well for all the reasons you listed. But the government can't STOP me from going out.

There was a state of emergency ordered here for Hurricane Sandy. My wife had been at work all night and stayed after her shift for several hours but eventually defied the order and came home. She's an EMT by the way. Is there a difference between her driving an ambulance in that weather or driving her personal vehicle?

One the government grants permission to drive but once she steps into her personal vehicle, she no longer has permission.

I also was out during Sandy because I live close enough to the water to be concerned. I went back and forth to the shore to monitor the level to see if I had to GTFO.

Technically, I broke some law I guess. It just seemed more prudent that to wait until the water was at my ankles.


I went out after Sandy but the emergency was still in place. It took me 4 hours to drive 30 miles. Then all the job sites I went to they didn't want work done. Needless to say, I went home. Then proceeded to take the next day off. Made absolutely no sense for me to go out. No one wanted any work done and it was impossible to find gas. Considering my job requires me to drive 100+ miles a day to and from job sites the mere fact that gas was next to impossible to find I did not want to risk running out of fuel then be stranded.

It's not that you are breaking a law. I don't believe it's a law. But it is there for a reason and the police will write tickets IF you make their job more difficult because you ignored the state of emergency declaration.
I'm On Fire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machines DS-1600 Hot Air Circulator

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:12 pm

lsayre wrote: I'm fairly confident that abject fear of ones government is every bit as much of a motivator as is respect for ones government. Besides, in this dumbed down day and age, most can not be assumed to have any knowledge of, or interest in, their rights and the exercise or protection thereof. Expedience and the desire to return to the status quo of a peaceful couch potato existence as soon as is practical dictates that in an emergency one should act to permit the government to trample over them rather than grumble over technicalities, as long as one presumes that in so doing they can quickly get back on the couch and turn the TV back on.


I'm fairly confident that the people in the lockdown area are aware of their rights and would not be hesitant to complain about unduly intrusive or heavy-handed tactics. I was born, raised, educated and lived for 37 years in/around the lockdown area, and I'm not willing to buy any of your theory on why the people in the lockdown area are such couch potatoes that they need out of state people to decide what's good for them. Among the 1 million "potatoes" there are plenty of students, lawyers, academics and others who are not shy about free speech, exercising or defending their rights, or propounding unpopular theories. You would do better to try to accept the actual reaction of the people who experienced this rather than dream up self-serving reasons for ignoring them.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Paulie On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:29 pm

Interesting to see the debate on theoretical infringement of freedoms here. The constitution is not a death pact, all forms of
government could really care less what you do as long as you don't f with others. The blood and guts on the streets of Boston is
REAL, not theoretical, gewy and red. What we are missing in this debate, is that it COULD be any one of us or someone close to
us. And if it were, the debate would be about how the government DIDN'T do enough to keep us safe and not about some petty inconvenience. I want this guy to go to GITMO to avoid the dog and pony show that has already begun in the media. He surrendered his rights when he began randomly killing us,F him for real, he has an appointment with the water table. 1/3 of my family was THERE, dumb luck they were two blocks away. No rights, No mercy, only pain and panic for this animal for as long as
they can do it with out killing him. Death is an escape that should be denied his psychopathic ass.
Paulie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:48 pm

Paulie wrote:Interesting to see the debate on theoretical infringement of freedoms here. The constitution is not a death pact, all forms of
government could really care less what you do as long as you don't f with others. The blood and guts on the streets of Boston is
REAL, not theoretical, gewy and red. What we are missing in this debate, is that it COULD be any one of us or someone close to
us. And if it were, the debate would be about how the government DIDN'T do enough to keep us safe and not about some petty inconvenience. I want this guy to go to GITMO to avoid the dog and pony show that has already begun in the media. He surrendered his rights when he began randomly killing us,F him for real, he has an appointment with the water table. 1/3 of my family was THERE, dumb luck they were two blocks away. No rights, No mercy, only pain and panic for this animal for as long as
they can do it with out killing him. Death is an escape that should be denied his psychopathic ass.


I like how they are now debating on whether or not they should/need to read his Miranda rights to him. Last I checked, if you are committing treason; of which you do not need to be a uS citizen to do you forfeit your rights. As far as I'm concerned, him and his brother are enemy combatants and as such they do not get Miranda rights read to them. Instead of sending his ass to GITMO why don't they just inject him with something to allow him to take a permanent dirt nap. Or better yet, his last meal can be a .45 slug to the dome.

Why drag him through courts at all. We can all see that is a complete joke, hell there are still detainees from 9/11 that haven't had their day in court. Three meals a day, a comfy bed. Instead of paying for him to be put up in a hotel until his day in court let's just make an example out of him. You attack us, you die. Any *censored* questions? The Japanese seemed to understand this in 1941; even though they went through with it. Then they forgot about it until the second bomb went off. 'Oh yeah, we don't antagonize the hornet's nest.'

But instead, the bleeding heart libtards will apologize, give him a hotel room a lawyer and tell him everything will be alright as they put him through the courts. And maybe, one day...justice will be served. Not likely.
I'm On Fire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machines DS-1600 Hot Air Circulator

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:05 pm

Paulie wrote:Interesting to see the debate on theoretical infringement of freedoms here. The constitution is not a death pact, all forms of
government could really care less what you do as long as you don't f with others. The blood and guts on the streets of Boston is
REAL, not theoretical, gewy and red. What we are missing in this debate, is that it COULD be any one of us or someone close to
us. And if it were, the debate would be about how the government DIDN'T do enough to keep us safe and not about some petty inconvenience. I want this guy to go to GITMO to avoid the dog and pony show that has already begun in the media. He surrendered his rights when he began randomly killing us,F him for real, he has an appointment with the water table. 1/3 of my family was THERE, dumb luck they were two blocks away. No rights, No mercy, only pain and panic for this animal for as long as
they can do it with out killing him. Death is an escape that should be denied his psychopathic ass.


Paulie,

You have my sympathies for the stresses that must have gone with this being such a close call for your family. I share your interest in making sure this couldn't reasonably have been prevented, and also your view of reasons for keeping the guy alive.

I do have concerns about the Gitmo part. While it doesn't look so good in hindsight, we made this guy a citizen. It concerns me that making it too easy to undo the rights of citizens is not something we should do out of anger over the crime. Unfortunately, we periodically find there are citizens among us who are sociopaths, and we have a process for handling that. If we can deal with Albert DeSalvo without messing with his citizenship, we can deal with this guy, too. I suppose if there were evidence that he sought or obtained citizenship for illegitimate purposes or with fraudulent information that some kind of case could be made. I guess in part I'd rather not have us do anything to make him into a martyr; just a convict doing life for crimes committed.

Mike

IOF - this was written before I saw your post. Would welcome your thoughts.
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:14 pm

Harvard is presently the last place on earth where I would look for proper instructions on our unalienable and unassailable sovereign rights. In times past it was the first place to look for the same.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:30 pm

I'd go along with you that it's not the '60's anymore, but that doesn't mean the 1M are brain dead. They've been through an experience that outsiders haven't, and their reactions to it shouldn't be disregarded just because they don't conform to some agenda.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:53 pm

Pacowy wrote:
jpete wrote: My "agenda" is the Constitution. Last I checked, unless I have been convicted of a crime, my rights end where yours begin.

So tell me again how me driving in a snow storm or a hurricane violates YOUR rights?

Or more to the point, how does a citizen of Watertown refusing entry to the SWAT team violate YOUR rights.

If you are expected to give up your rights any time the government declares an "emergency" then you don't really have any rights at all. You have PRIVILEGES the government gives you with the understanding that they may be revoked at any time for any reason.


The last I checked, the laws under which governments exercise emergency powers have not been found to be unconstitutional. Whether or not you like them, you are not and have not ever been free to ignore them without risk of consequences.

Your example of a storm is a good one. Assume there is an ice storm, and I-95 becomes so slippery as to be impassable. After numerous serious accidents your governor orders the highway to be closed to provide a safe opportunity for emergency personnel to help the injured, clear the wreckage and establish better road conditions. You think you're entitled to ignore the order and drive down the road anyways? P.S. This has happened more than once on I-87 in NY. You endanger others when you ignore valid public safety orders, no matter how highly you think of your car.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking about the SWAT team. I'm not aware that anyone in Watertown refused entry, or wished to refuse entry, to any SWAT team. If anyone unlawfully impeded the pursuit of the suspect they would be endangering civilians as well as law enforcement personnel, but so far that sort of thing doesn't seem to be a concern for you.

On its face, the Fourth Amendment protects you against unreasonable searches, not against all searches. The fact is that bona fide emergencies sometimes arise that make it reasonable to undertake searches that normally would be unreasonable (e.g., hunting fugitive bombers with SWAT teams). If you are unhappy with the way your state and local officials exercise their emergency authorities, look in the mirror, because you have the opportunity to vote for them or for someone else who you think would do a better job.

Mike


First, I assure you, no one I voted for holds public office today so looking in the mirror won't tell me anything I don't already know.

Second, clearly we won't agree. But when one day you wake up and ask yourself "What happened to the country I grew up in?" maybe you'll have an idea what I'm talking about.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:54 pm

Flyer5 wrote:
Pacowy wrote:
Flyer5 wrote: I don't feel it to be hypocritical at all. While people there may be ok with it this time. What happens next time when it get pushed a little further and a little further? Entering a home without permission just because of an unlocked door seems to be a little over the edge. If people were ok giving permission that is fine. If people felt they had no choice but to give permission that is not. Only time will tell.


I understand that "outside" people have legitimate concerns about their rights, and may not easily be able to reconcile those concerns with what they've seen. When they try to resolve that by simply declaring the people who experienced the incident to be "idiots", "pinheads" or otherwise wrong, they are taking away the voice of the people who experienced it in a way that they do not want applied to themselves. If you don't like the term hypocrisy, please feel free to suggest another word.

Entering a home because of an unlocked door is blatantly unreasonable under normal conditions, and even if you were operating a meth lab and your lawyer was asleep I understand it would pretty much be automatic that evidence obtained in the unreasonable search would be tossed.

In this case, there was a well-publicized "shelter in place" order that repeatedly was announced and broadcast, and which included a protocol of locking doors and opening them only for properly-identified law enforcement personnel. A door that isn't locked violates the protocol and provides either an opportunity for the subject to enter or evidence that he already did. Under the prevailing circumstances, I haven't heard of anyone there who had a problem with this. A search of whatever space is accessible via the unlocked door is needed as part of locating the subject and securing that space and on that basis is "reasonable" as required by the Fourth Amendment. It doesn't establish any precedent for other circumstances, or mean the gov't can prosecute the occupants for their meth lab.

Mike


Please don't add words that I have not used or implied. I actually appreciate your opinion on the matter and do not consider you or any of the people out there as such. I hear people complain about the govt in Mass all the time. And the reason it just gets worse is because people fail to question these matters. Like I said if it turns out that this was the best and safest way for the task at hand and no one is upset or rights violated then so be it. I am not judging any one. Just voicing my concerns of the matter.


He's talking about me. :D
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Paulie wrote:Interesting to see the debate on theoretical infringement of freedoms here. The constitution is not a death pact, all forms of
government could really care less what you do as long as you don't f with others. The blood and guts on the streets of Boston is
REAL, not theoretical, gewy and red. What we are missing in this debate, is that it COULD be any one of us or someone close to
us. And if it were, the debate would be about how the government DIDN'T do enough to keep us safe and not about some petty inconvenience. I want this guy to go to GITMO to avoid the dog and pony show that has already begun in the media. He surrendered his rights when he began randomly killing us,F him for real, he has an appointment with the water table. 1/3 of my family was THERE, dumb luck they were two blocks away. No rights, No mercy, only pain and panic for this animal for as long as
they can do it with out killing him. Death is an escape that should be denied his psychopathic ass.


More people are violently killed in Chicago on any given weekend than in Boston last week.

Do we declare no fly zones and start kicking in doors?

I know many people who were there too. Advocating for the revocation of anyone's rights is equal to arguing for the revocation of your own and I'm not willing to do that. Regardless of how close to the situation I feel.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:05 pm

jpete wrote: First, I assure you, no one I voted for holds public office today so looking in the mirror won't tell me anything I don't already know.

Second, clearly we won't agree. But when one day you wake up and ask yourself "What happened to the country I grew up in?" maybe you'll have an idea what I'm talking about.


I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. The country I grew up in is long gone. Some things are better and some are worse, but I don't trace it to SWAT teams.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:23 pm

they are not putting him on trial as an enemy "combatant" but rather a citizen :shock: I'm getting a little tired of the political BS and *censored* footing around with these people... we can count our unacceptable enemy's on one hand (I know we have plenty of opposing conflicts, etc. with more then that but I deem those others as acceptable)... Its the few, N Korea, Iran, Afghan and the couple of places that support them like the vicious country of Chechenia :mad: I don't really care what they do with the 19 year old idiot as long as he is locked away someplace forever or put to death. BUT at some point if this crap continues (which it will I'm sure) we need to stop with the troops and simply start lighting shyt up overseas! We essentially put Iraq 100 years into the past in a matter of 1 week (the only reason they have been able to come back to something resemembling a modern country is because WE rebuilt it!), enough with all the BS and just start sending these few places we KNOW are guilty back 100 years! I know you will all say "but what about the innocent woman and children and citizens of these places"... the answer is... they are ALL equally coop able because they allow their Gov. to do what they do and they allow these festering havens to terrorists, etc... enough is enough and I'm tired of sending troops in anyplace... time to start taking names and lighting shyt up! :mad: im sorry for my feelings but they are what they are :(
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404