Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:45 pm

They didnt get tagged as terrorists. They were toe tagged..... No need to say any thing more. Because of the nature of the crime and lack of a subsequent suicide
it was assumed that there might be danger to national security , and under the Patriot Act; I think; the had the right to briefly question without Miranda rights. Im not sure of the exact laws involved but I heard the discussion somewhere..... Secret source, sign up for my show , Im giving the guberment till mon. high noon; then Im gonna out them..... :D
waldo lemieux
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Cap On: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:31 pm

Did anyone see the picture of the sidewalk seconds after the bomb published in SI? Quite horrifying. Look closely if you have it.
Cap
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman SF 250, domestic hot water loop, heat accumulator

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Cap On: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:38 pm

lsayre wrote:I heard the same thing. No gun in his posession while in the boat.


You claim no TV. How did you hear it? Steaming internet video? Inquiring minds need to know.
Cap
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman SF 250, domestic hot water loop, heat accumulator


Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: lsayre On: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:49 pm

I listed my live streaming internet source early on in this thread.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13 KW)

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:16 pm

lsayre wrote:
Pacowy wrote:What do you see as the loose ends and inconsistencies?

Mike


There are so many, but the largest one is no reading of Miranda rights. With that, seeing that Dzhokhar is a citizen of the USA, and that as such he should have all of the rights of a citizen, I hope this does not mean that at some juncture the Supreme Court will free him, regardless of what he says to the interrogators, or what any jury subsequently decides. I do however hope that all evidence collected post his arrest and before he is read his rights is declared ineligible for presentation to the jury, and that as the jury is being seated they are asked if they heard any of his pre Miranda confessions, etc... (with this leading to their immediate dismissal from jury duty if they admit that they have heard of such).

Others include warrantless door to door searches at gunpoint, where the home dwellers were themselves treated as if they were all terrorists.

And that brings up another issue. Since everyone and their brother at the political level and in the press, etc... has labeled Dzhokhar a terrorist, but no jury has actually decided whether or not he actually is, how on earth can he ever expect to be granted a fair trial? Did the Columbine or Newtown murders get tagged officially as terrorists, and if not, then why not?


I agree he must be treated as a citizen. My non-lawyer understanding is that there is a public safety exception to Miranda, that they asked him public safety questions first (Are there bombs planted anywhere else?, etc.) then he was Mirandized and has been talking voluntarily.

I gave more detailed comments earlier regarding the searches. SWAT teams hunting for fugitive armed bombers carry guns. You don't want them wandering the neighborhood all the time, but they were there for a specific public safety purpose and nobody there that I have heard of thought the searches were unreasonable. The protocol for the lockdown and searches was announced and as far as I can tell it was followed.

The fair trial issue is interesting, though I wouldn't be surprised if he pleads out. Obviously there is a case for the death penalty, but he seems to be cooperating and it might be counterproductive for us to make a martyr of him.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite


Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:50 am

Pacowy wrote:
lsayre wrote:
Pacowy wrote:What do you see as the loose ends and inconsistencies?

Mike


There are so many, but the largest one is no reading of Miranda rights. With that, seeing that Dzhokhar is a citizen of the USA, and that as such he should have all of the rights of a citizen, I hope this does not mean that at some juncture the Supreme Court will free him, regardless of what he says to the interrogators, or what any jury subsequently decides. I do however hope that all evidence collected post his arrest and before he is read his rights is declared ineligible for presentation to the jury, and that as the jury is being seated they are asked if they heard any of his pre Miranda confessions, etc... (with this leading to their immediate dismissal from jury duty if they admit that they have heard of such).

Others include warrantless door to door searches at gunpoint, where the home dwellers were themselves treated as if they were all terrorists.

And that brings up another issue. Since everyone and their brother at the political level and in the press, etc... has labeled Dzhokhar a terrorist, but no jury has actually decided whether or not he actually is, how on earth can he ever expect to be granted a fair trial? Did the Columbine or Newtown murders get tagged officially as terrorists, and if not, then why not?


I agree he must be treated as a citizen. My non-lawyer understanding is that there is a public safety exception to Miranda, that they asked him public safety questions first (Are there bombs planted anywhere else?, etc.) then he was Mirandized and has been talking voluntarily.

I gave more detailed comments earlier regarding the searches. SWAT teams hunting for fugitive armed bombers carry guns. You don't want them wandering the neighborhood all the time, but they were there for a specific public safety purpose and nobody there that I have heard of thought the searches were unreasonable. The protocol for the lockdown and searches was announced and as far as I can tell it was followed.

The fair trial issue is interesting, though I wouldn't be surprised if he pleads out. Obviously there is a case for the death penalty, but he seems to be cooperating and it might be counterproductive for us to make a martyr of him.

Mike


If that is the case. It bothers me more that most people think how it was handled was OK. Searching homes with no warrant by using intimidation. And few are questioning it. Does this bother anyone? Or just look wrong?

search.jpeg
(597.76 KiB) Viewed 11 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]41805[/nepathumb]
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:41 am

It looks like something you don't want to see everyday, and you don't. It was widely reported here, after the names of the bombers were known, that they had fled to the Watertown neighborhood because they had familiarity with it, and that a few families in the area shared that last name. It was not known whether there was a house where the bombers could hide out, potentially with their stash of bomb supplies (which, AFAIK, had not been found at that point) or even supporters who would join them in fighting law enforcement personnel. An armed and dangerous individual was on the loose in a residential neighborhood, and there was an inflow from neighbors of potential bomber sightings.

Under these circumstances, the idea that the search could be performed safely or effectively by following everyday procedures is simply wrong. The SWAT team should put down their weapons when they knock on the Tsarnaev family's door, or the door of a house where a neighbor reported a possible entry by the bomber? Uh, no. The SWAT team should let people from such houses rummage through their pockets to retrieve concealed weapons while they're out on the street rather than enforce a protocol that keeps everybody safe? Again, no. AFAIK there were no no-knock entries (other than investigating unlocked doors that violated the lockdown protocol), no harm to civilians or their property and no improper use of evidence seized or observed during searches. Nobody here is complaining because, under difficult circumstances, it was reasonable, and that is the standard promised by 4A.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:50 am

Flyer5 wrote: If that is the case. It bothers me more that most people think how it was handled was OK. Searching homes with no warrant by using intimidation. And few are questioning it. Does this bother anyone? Or just look wrong?


That picture is similar to another one I already commented on. Note to self: Don't take high ground over a SWAT team and sight them through a hand-held object. In both pics, the only person in anybody's gunsight is the one holding the camera. The guy with the gun is doing his job protecting the team. No civilians were harmed.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:30 am

We are very lucky that the fully militarized and seriously wound up and steroid pumped police (goons and thugs akin to brownshirts in their own right, just look at them) at all levels (local, state, FBI, CIA, etc...) did not fire upon any innocent civilians in this instance of city wide lockdown and blocks of door to door searches. I can easily envision a day when they will. All it takes is a noise or disruption or misinterpreted command (or one rogue cop firing intentionally) and all hell would break loose upon the immediate assumption that the police are being fired upon or attacked (as was the case for the suspect lying in the boat, for which it is now being considered that a startling noise or a single accidently discharged police firearm caused dozens of hyper officers to rapidly unload upon the boat). It is a miracle that the suspect emerged alive. No one firing upon the boat could see his location within, so they were not targeting well placed master-sniper fired intentional wounding only shots. Not when a few hundreds of shots were ripped off at the boat in only about 5 seconds.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13 KW)

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:21 am

Or there is always the possibility that these people all did the jobs they were trained to do, they did them under difficult circumstances in accordance with well-publicized protocols, they didn't harm any civilians and "we the people" who were actually there gave them a standing O for their performance when they were done. And if you've done any work with probabilities, you would know that it makes no sense to argue that hundreds of shots could be randomly placed in an area that small without turning the subject into Swiss cheese. Just because you're fearful of thugs on steroids, that doesn't mean it happened here.

When a theory doesn't fit the data, it's time to change the theory. Too many people who weren't there seem to prefer keeping their theories and changing the data to fit them. If you don't like that when the global warming proponents do it, please stop doing it yourselves.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:41 am

The data says that the 4th amendment was violated several hundred times and the people it is designed to protect applauded it.

We are in for some dark days ahead. We've been circling the drain for some time and most people can feel the speed picking up, even if they can't express how they know.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:54 am

jpete wrote:The data says that the 4th amendment was violated several hundred times and the people it is designed to protect applauded it.

We are in for some dark days ahead. We've been circling the drain for some time and most people can feel the speed picking up, even if they can't express how they know.


Jeff, you're the guy who quoted me "we the people", but now you try to deny what they've said. They applauded because the search was reasonable in the circumstances that existed. The 4th amendment is there to make sure searches are reasonable, and "the people it is designed to protect" said they were. Can't it be left at that?

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:01 pm

No. Because people are ALWAYS willing to give up their rights when they are scared.

Look at the BS after 9/11. And we'll live with that forever.

The guys doing the searching all to oaths to PROTECT our rights not violate them, even if we think it's a good idea at the time.

Hell, I haven even mentioned Posse Comitatus. Of course, I guess now that I think about it, GWB repealed that.

The philosophy of "never let a crisis go to waste" was around long before Rahm Emmanuel had the balls to say it publicly.

People in government have a long view. It's incrementalism. It happens so slowly, most people never notice. The "boiling frog" theory if you will.

This incident set a precedent on how all "terrorist attacks" will be handled from now on.

How about the next mall or movie theater shooting? Lock down the area, declare a no fly zone and search random houses until they find the guy?

God help us the next time a cop is shot. That'll be a treat.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:50 pm

jpete wrote:No. Because people are ALWAYS willing to give up their rights when they are scared.

Look at the BS after 9/11. And we'll live with that forever.

The guys doing the searching all to oaths to PROTECT our rights not violate them, even if we think it's a good idea at the time.

Hell, I haven even mentioned Posse Comitatus. Of course, I guess now that I think about it, GWB repealed that.

The philosophy of "never let a crisis go to waste" was around long before Rahm Emmanuel had the balls to say it publicly.

People in government have a long view. It's incrementalism. It happens so slowly, most people never notice. The "boiling frog" theory if you will.

This incident set a precedent on how all "terrorist attacks" will be handled from now on.

How about the next mall or movie theater shooting? Lock down the area, declare a no fly zone and search random houses until they find the guy?

God help us the next time a cop is shot. That'll be a treat.


First of all, I agree with you that much of what happened after 9/11 was too hasty and ill-conceived when it came to privacy, etc. issues. I understand some of that has been rolled back, but probably not enough of it.

On the rights we're talking about, I'm not a constitutional scholar, but as far as I know there are circumstances where even no-knock searches are lawful and have not been found to be unreasonable and/or unconstitutional. 250 years ago the colonists were subjected to the types of searches the 4th amendment precludes as "unreasonable". I don't think anyone is really happy about the idea that you can't always stand at your door and decide whether to allow a search, but the 4th amendment plainly references a standard of "reasonableness", not an absolute standard, and nothing I know of in this episode has changed that.

You seem to be assuming without foundation that the search process was "random". AFAIK it focused on (a) buildings understood to potentially house relatives or friends of the bombers; (b) buildings where tips (e.g., from neighbors) indicated the possible presence of the bomber; and, (c) buildings not in compliance with the lockdown protocol (e.g., open or unlocked doors) that would provide access for the bomber. Even at these locations, I'm not aware of any no-knock, forced-entry searches, or anything about the searches conducted that would plainly be unreasonable taken in context.

I'm curious about your reference to lockdowns. In response to the repeated problem of mass murders in schools, many schools have implemented a protocol of having the teachers lock all of the classroom doors when such a danger is perceived to be present. It makes it harder for perps to get from room to room, potentially making it harder for them to get at potential victims. Are those lockdowns reasonable, or does any individual student always have the "right" to walk out, even if it realistically could result in the death of everyone in the room?

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite