Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:51 pm

Pacowy wrote:You seem to be assuming without foundation that the search process was "random". AFAIK it focused on (a) buildings understood to potentially house relatives or friends of the bombers; (b) buildings where tips (e.g., from neighbors) indicated the possible presence of the bomber; and, (c) buildings not in compliance with the lockdown protocol (e.g., open or unlocked doors) that would provide access for the bomber. Even at these locations, I'm not aware of any no-knock, forced-entry searches, or anything about the searches conducted that would plainly be unreasonable taken in context.


Absolutely incorrect. They search EVERY house in a 20 block radius. And they didn't ask "May we come in?" They pointed their weapons at the door, and ordered everyone out.

Pacowy wrote:I'm curious about your reference to lockdowns. In response to the repeated problem of mass murders in schools, many schools have implemented a protocol of having the teachers lock all of the classroom doors when such a danger is perceived to be present. It makes it harder for perps to get from room to room, potentially making it harder for them to get at potential victims. Are those lockdowns reasonable, or does any individual student always have the "right" to walk out, even if it realistically could result in the death of everyone in the room?

Mike


They didn't lock down "A" building. They locked down an ENTIRE town. Plus stopped all mass transit in the area and declared a no fly zone. That's VERY different than locking a school down with a known active shooter inside.

And frankly, the whole, hide under the desk, put your head between your legs and kiss your @ss goodbye "strategy" isn't one I recommend.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:36 pm

This is exactly why I have a problem with what I see in that picture. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -shot.html

If you DO NOT have an identifiable threat you do not point your weapon. Simple gun logic. This is not the streets of Afghanistan. It is Boston.

If this were real would this be also acceptable? By what is being said there was a mad man on the loose and they would just be protecting his home from the inside. That logic can go both ways.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:57 pm

jpete wrote: They search EVERY house in a 20 block radius. And they didn't ask "May we come in?" They pointed their weapons at the door, and ordered everyone out...They didn't lock down "A" building. They locked down an ENTIRE town. Plus stopped all mass transit in the area and declared a no fly zone. That's VERY different than locking a school down with a known active shooter inside.

And frankly, the whole, hide under the desk, put your head between your legs and kiss your @ss goodbye "strategy" isn't one I recommend.


What's your source of info for the idea that every house in a 20-block radius was evacuated at gunpoint?

Since you don't seem to object to the concept of a lockdown - just its scope as applied here - where is it defined how big a lockdown is appropriate when a known armed bomber - with an unknown number of possible accomplices - is at large after having inflicted mass casualties on a public gathering and engaged in a lengthy gunfight with police, including bomb-tossing - in a residential neighborhood? The people in MA elected a governor to make that judgment - consistent with states' rights under the Constitution. Some people think it was broad, and some people think it was just fine. In the end the guy was caught without civilian casualties. You might have made a different judgment, but I don't see why your opinion should count more than the numerous people who endorsed it. Without guns in their faces.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:55 pm

Heck what I would like to know is how these people got into the country in the first, at least the mother was here with the kids maybe both parents but it seems to be it was for awhile. Why were the kids allowed to stay if the parents weren't?
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Cap On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:13 pm

lsayre wrote:We are very lucky that the fully militarized and seriously wound up and steroid pumped police (goons and thugs akin to brownshirts in their own right, just look at them) at all levels (local, state, FBI, CIA, etc...) did not fire upon any innocent civilians in this instance of city wide lockdown and blocks of door to door searches. I can easily envision a day when they will. All it takes is a noise or disruption or misinterpreted command (or one rogue cop firing intentionally) and all hell would break loose upon the immediate assumption that the police are being fired upon or attacked (as was the case for the suspect lying in the boat, for which it is now being considered that a startling noise or a single accidently discharged police firearm caused dozens of hyper officers to rapidly unload upon the boat). It is a miracle that the suspect emerged alive. No one firing upon the boat could see his location within, so they were not targeting well placed master-sniper fired intentional wounding only shots. Not when a few hundreds of shots were ripped off at the boat in only about 5 seconds.



Honestly....I'd be more afraid of a guy like you with a gun in his hand rather than the guys you describe. :shock:

BTW, you coming to the Meet & Greet?
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:23 pm

Flyer5 wrote:This is exactly why I have a problem with what I see in that picture. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -shot.html

If you DO NOT have an identifiable threat you do not point your weapon. Simple gun logic. This is not the streets of Afghanistan. It is Boston.

If this were real would this be also acceptable? By what is being said there was a mad man on the loose and they would just be protecting his home from the inside. That logic can go both ways.
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It can only go both ways if you appoint yourself to be a vigilante who has authority to discharge his weapon into a crowded neighborhood, interfering with a lawful search. You probably would get yourself killed doing that under the circumstances that existed in Watertown.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:37 pm

samhill wrote:Heck what I would like to know is how these people got into the country in the first, at least the mother was here with the kids maybe both parents but it seems to be it was for awhile. Why were the kids allowed to stay if the parents weren't?


I think the parents and the younger brother were granted asylum here more than 10 years ago, as the family originally fled Chechnya in the 1990's and lived elsewhere in Russia for a while. The older brother arrived around 2003(?).

I think the mother was not kicked out, but fled in 2012 due to issues with shoplifting and other comparatively minor crimes (there still are warrants out for her in MA). By that time, as I understand it, the older brother was married (to a woman from RI) and had a child born here. The younger brother was old enough at that point to live on his own in MA. He became a U.S. citizen that year and has been a student at UMass-Dartmouth.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:59 pm

There is absolutely no defense for pointing a loaded weapon at anything unless you've identified it as a threat or dinner. These chowsers were not in a war zone, though I'm sure in their fantasies they were, and there is no rational case to be made that they were. First, it doesn't happen here, Beirut maybe; second there was never any evidence that there was any more than one guy they were looking for and there was 50 million cops all carrying weapons that hold more than seven rounds. I don't think there was any rational reason to feel all that threatened by one wounded 19 yr old kid. Even as they brought the creep out in the ambulance those knuckleheads were at the ready with their finger on the trigger. That tells me that those guys have been drinking to much RED BULL and playing video games!
You can say "well everyone applauded them after it was over" but that's horse *censored*, you wont get me to believe that aren't some folks out there that weren't so happy; and that side of the story will come out as the dust settles . :x
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:03 pm

Yep w l, I'm sure there are people all over the world that see/understand your point of view--I personally don't happen to be one of them ;)
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:20 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Flyer5 wrote:This is exactly why I have a problem with what I see in that picture. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -shot.html

If you DO NOT have an identifiable threat you do not point your weapon. Simple gun logic. This is not the streets of Afghanistan. It is Boston.

If this were real would this be also acceptable? By what is being said there was a mad man on the loose and they would just be protecting his home from the inside. That logic can go both ways.
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It can only go both ways if you appoint yourself to be a vigilante who has authority to discharge his weapon into a crowded neighborhood, interfering with a lawful search. You probably would get yourself killed doing that under the circumstances that existed in Watertown.

Mike



I understand your point and agree. But I don't feel they should be pointing weapons indiscriminately either. That is my point. What if the person have a video camera and they shot. There are way to many civilian causalities as of lately. Don't misunderstand me I am not trying to argue with you on your stance, just sharing mine as well.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:26 pm

Well just what do you think would have happened to that man & quite a few others if it were a militant with a weapon? That guy is doing exactly what he is trained & supposed to do, if you see movement you have just a split second to identify & decide. I think the person in the window has more luck than smarts. I'm still waiting for some answers on how all you Rambo's would have handled the situation, in the beginning of this thread there were many that had already made up their minds to nuke countries, hang certain people, kill others by race or religious belief & still a few more that didn't say much of anything until most of it was over. Simple question, what would or should have been done differently to try & ensure both public & officer safety, those guys want to go home just like everyone else.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:38 pm

waldo lemieux wrote:There is absolutely no defense for pointing a loaded weapon at anything unless you've identified it as a threat or dinner. These chowsers were not in a war zone, though I'm sure in their fantasies they were, and there is no rational case to be made that they were. First, it doesn't happen here, Beirut maybe; second there was never any evidence that there was any more than one guy they were looking for and there was 50 million cops all carrying weapons that hold more than seven rounds. I don't think there was any rational reason to feel all that threatened by one wounded 19 yr old kid. Even as they brought the creep out in the ambulance those knuckleheads were at the ready with their finger on the trigger. That tells me that those guys have been drinking to much RED BULL and playing video games!
You can say "well everyone applauded them after it was over" but that's horse *censored*, you wont get me to believe that aren't some folks out there that weren't so happy; and that side of the story will come out as the dust settles . :x


Sorry Waldo, but this "it doesn't happen here" logic appears to be part of the problem some out-of-state folks seem to be having with this. It did happen here. SWAT units were deployed because the perps had shown their intent was to inflict mass casualties on civilians, and they were equipped with IED's that they were only too happy to use. People can say "it's not Afghanistan" if they want, but for that period of time, it was. You're completely wrong when you assert law enforcement could be comfortable that the second bomber had no supporters or sympathizers who could have posed a threat, not to mention the fact that you can fit a fair number of pipe bombs in a backpack. Or a safehouse. No one knew for sure what the situation was on those fronts until after the search. Your statement that there wasn't "any rational reason to feel all that threatened" is so detached from the reality faced by the people who live here that it's hard to take seriously.

Somehow there is a group of people who are willing to overlook the demonstrated danger to civilians posed by these armed bombers, and focus instead on the fact that armed SWAT teams were dispatched to find and neutralize them, and how bad and scary that is. The SWAT teams were there to provide public safety when conventional law enforcement could not. They did the job they were asked to do and went on their way with thanks from the people who observed what they did and the circumstances under which they were operating. Your willingness to dismiss that in order to perpetuate your double-standard is the only horses**t that is being spread here.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:47 pm

samhill wrote:Well just what do you think would have happened to that man & quite a few others if it were a militant with a weapon? That guy is doing exactly what he is trained & supposed to do, if you see movement you have just a split second to identify & decide. I think the person in the window has more luck than smarts. I'm still waiting for some answers on how all you Rambo's would have handled the situation, in the beginning of this thread there were many that had already made up their minds to nuke countries, hang certain people, kill others by race or religious belief & still a few more that didn't say much of anything until most of it was over. Simple question, what would or should have been done differently to try & ensure both public & officer safety, those guys want to go home just like everyone else.



Again so did these women. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -shot.html

This I exactly why I am against it. That soldier or LEO was composed enough to not be trigger happy. But allowing them to wave a gun around in windows eventually you have what happened to the two women delivering papers when you get the nervous officer on the trigger. Threat needs to be identified before pointing a rifle at someone.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Paulie On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:48 pm

Random sucker punch bombing, wild west street shoot outs, house to house search, smart civilians, 1 bad guy down- the other caught, a heavily armed and dangerous needle in a hay stack. No brown shirts, just true BLUE and thank God we had them. They
took the hits so that we did not have to take more.Wrapped it up in a matter of DAYS- could have been YEARS, all levels of Gov. worked and got it done. If all the anti government people think they can do better, I pray to God you do not get the chance to find out. Mistakes and missteps? Plenty I'm sure, but the learning curve on something like this is pretty steep because the tuition is paid in blood. We got a F'n bargain.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:56 pm

I guess I stand with this gentleman, who sees things from a somewhat different perspective:

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