Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:00 pm

Paulie wrote:Random sucker punch bombing, wild west street shoot outs, house to house search, smart civilians, 1 bad guy down- the other caught, a heavily armed and dangerous needle in a hay stack. No brown shirts, just true BLUE and thank God we had them. They
took the hits so that we did not have to take more.Wrapped it up in a matter of DAYS- could have been YEARS, all levels of Gov. worked and got it done. If all the anti government people think they can do better, I pray to God you do not get the chance to find out. Mistakes and missteps? Plenty I'm sure, but the learning curve on something like this is pretty steep because the tuition is paid in blood. We got a F'n bargain.



Part of why I have trouble with this is. The older brother Speedbump was on a watch list for a short time even though we were warned about him. They were afraid to step on his liberties and rights. God forbid we should offend or inconvenience a possible terrorist. But after the fact we could take away the rights of an entire city and invoke martial law on everyone. Yea that sounds fair. We need some more Politically correct bull s%^t in this country that will make it much better. I go to the airport and have my balls grabbed during screening and someone wearing a turbine cannot be touched. We are so afraid of hurting the feelings of non citizens in this country or at least natural born citizens. But it has become so easy to inconvenience the American people. Not only that we paid for their survival.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:14 am

Paulie wrote:Random sucker punch bombing, wild west street shoot outs, house to house search, smart civilians, 1 bad guy down- the other caught, a heavily armed and dangerous needle in a hay stack. No brown shirts, just true BLUE and thank God we had them. They
took the hits so that we did not have to take more.Wrapped it up in a matter of DAYS- could have been YEARS, all levels of Gov. worked and got it done. If all the anti government people think they can do better, I pray to God you do not get the chance to find out. Mistakes and missteps? Plenty I'm sure, but the learning curve on something like this is pretty steep because the tuition is paid in blood. We got a F'n bargain.


x2.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:04 am

Flyer5 wrote: Part of why I have trouble with this is. The older brother Speedbump was on a watch list for a short time even though we were warned about him. They were afraid to step on his liberties and rights. God forbid we should offend or inconvenience a possible terrorist. But after the fact we could take away the rights of an entire city and invoke martial law on everyone. Yea that sounds fair. We need some more Politically correct bull s%^t in this country that will make it much better. I go to the airport and have my balls grabbed during screening and someone wearing a turbine cannot be touched. We are so afraid of hurting the feelings of non citizens in this country or at least natural born citizens. But it has become so easy to inconvenience the American people. Not only that we paid for their survival.


With all due respect - and probably not surprisingly - I would draw the opposite conclusion. If you look at the timeline it appears most of this guy's radicalization took place after the FBI had checked him out. By the accounts I've heard, he became persuaded that he needed to defend Islam. Is it possible that the initial investigation of him - at which time he had done nothing overtly terroristic (if that's a word) - was so heavy-handed as to contribute to persuading him that Islam needs to be defended?

I don't have any way to know what actually happened in the initial inquiry here, and I'm not offering this as a criticism of the FBI. My vote would be that when they become aware of someone who might be moving towards radicalization that they should go most heavily on emphasizing the freedom of religion that exists here. Like with a Muslim agent, or, if we're really lucky, an agent who is a reformed jihadist. And hopefully we're far enough along with gender issues that female agents will understand it's best to let the guys handle this one, and avoid trying to look the subject in the eye (...uh, at least if the subject is male). To me, the way to persuade a budding radical that mass murder is not needed to defend Islam is to demonstrate the respect for the practice of Islam - and other religions - that is embedded in our laws. An ultra-PC initial contact with law enforcement - "Here's my card - please let me know if anyone interferes with you practicing your religion" seems like a reasonable way to reduce the likelihood someone could become persuaded to go to war against American civilians over religious issues. My vote would be to roll out the Welcome Wagon until such time as it is known that the subject has passed a "point of no return" on radicalization.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:49 am

I more or less agree with that--EXCEPT--the only way to really know if one of them has passed the point of no return, would unfortunately be the sad carrying out of the Boston fiasco:( It is not a job I would want. To much bullshit from the arm chair critics:(
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:03 am

Pacowy wrote:
Flyer5 wrote: Part of why I have trouble with this is. The older brother Speedbump was on a watch list for a short time even though we were warned about him. They were afraid to step on his liberties and rights. God forbid we should offend or inconvenience a possible terrorist. But after the fact we could take away the rights of an entire city and invoke martial law on everyone. Yea that sounds fair. We need some more Politically correct bull s%^t in this country that will make it much better. I go to the airport and have my balls grabbed during screening and someone wearing a turbine cannot be touched. We are so afraid of hurting the feelings of non citizens in this country or at least natural born citizens. But it has become so easy to inconvenience the American people. Not only that we paid for their survival.


With all due respect - and probably not surprisingly - I would draw the opposite conclusion. If you look at the timeline it appears most of this guy's radicalization took place after the FBI had checked him out. By the accounts I've heard, he became persuaded that he needed to defend Islam. Is it possible that the initial investigation of him - at which time he had done nothing overtly terroristic (if that's a word) - was so heavy-handed as to contribute to persuading him that Islam needs to be defended?

I don't have any way to know what actually happened in the initial inquiry here, and I'm not offering this as a criticism of the FBI. My vote would be that when they become aware of someone who might be moving towards radicalization that they should go most heavily on emphasizing the freedom of religion that exists here. Like with a Muslim agent, or, if we're really lucky, an agent who is a reformed jihadist. And hopefully we're far enough along with gender issues that female agents will understand it's best to let the guys handle this one, and avoid trying to look the subject in the eye (...uh, at least if the subject is male). To me, the way to persuade a budding radical that mass murder is not needed to defend Islam is to demonstrate the respect for the practice of Islam - and other religions - that is embedded in our laws. An ultra-PC initial contact with law enforcement - "Here's my card - please let me know if anyone interferes with you practicing your religion" seems like a reasonable way to reduce the likelihood someone could become persuaded to go to war against American civilians over religious issues. My vote would be to roll out the Welcome Wagon until such time as it is known that the subject has passed a "point of no return" on radicalization.

Mike


NO.... just NO. I know what you say would appear to make fair, common and good sense BUT... You clearly have not served overseas. There is no sense we as Americans can or will ever understand :mad: (we need to gtfo of their shyt, come home and hunker down to take care of us and leave all them over their to enjoy their lives overseas). I cant even believe I paid for these @ssholes to live here (bad enough I have to pay for folks who really need help), clearly these dudes had more physical ability and stregth then I do (they enjoyed going to the gym everyday, working out like athletes, going to collage like it was their right, etc.) and somehow they are on welfare having their food, apartment, medical and dental care all paid for by your tax dollars! Are you freeeking shyting me! I'll say it again.... its a damb good thing im not president (because their would be a shytstorm of change happening)!
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:14 am

Yep-- good point dc--being the good Native American that I am, I can only dream of what it would be like here today if all you fkers went back where you came from--how soon we forget & become legends in our own minds. We were doing just fine without the whole bunch of ya, don't ya know :notworthy: toothy
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:13 am

dbl post, sorry
Last edited by dcrane on Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:13 am

freetown fred wrote:Yep-- good point dc--being the good Native American that I am, I can only dream of what it would be like here today if all you fkers went back where you came from--how soon we forget & become legends in our own minds. We were doing just fine without the whole bunch of ya, don't ya know :notworthy: toothy


Ohhhh sure you can joke... most of these people come from daily lives in a war zone with death, mayhem and viciousness like most Americans cannot understand. Its a way of life and has been for generations for them! We can open the doors and give them free food and drink and let them relax at the spa and gym all day sucking on Pina Colada's but it WILL NOT change what is born and bread into their very exsistance & soul (WE ARE THE DEVIL!)

Do you believe the world is round Fred??? Is their any way possible for someone or someplace to seriously teach you the truth that the world is flat and you CAN and WILL fall of the edge if you sail to far east or west??? We will NEVER be able to change what they believe no matter how much we think we can! USA is the Devil... if you Fred could kill the Devil himself forevermore and make God appear on Earth for EVERYONE forevermore...would you give up your life for such an epic event as Jesus Christ himself walking the Earth again? As strong as these analogy's are... they believe these truths 1000x more then even how I've described it above! and were not changing that! SO.... do we still bring them all over here to live amongst our kids and raise them into our communities???? (remember...WE ARE THE DEVIL HIMSELF! AND BY SIMPLY KILLING THE DEVIL WILL BRING GOD, PEACE AND HARMONY FOREVERMORE TO THE UNIVERSE AND YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY SHALL SIT ON THE THRONE OF GLORY NEXT TO GOD FOREVER IF YOU KILL THE DEVIL!)

Times change and the world changes after 100, 200, 300 years and we need to base decisions we make on the world in which we live... we dont allow slavery anymore, we dont burn witches at the stack in the town square, we are accepting of how people feel & love each other even if they are gay (we even allow sodomy now :shock:).... their is plenty of precidence as to how and why laws, thoughts and actions are required to be changed through time. To simply say that because America has ALWAYS open to anyone and everyone because thats how its always been and thats what built us into the great nation we became is a closed minded, easy attitude. We need to think MUCH more proactivly and open minded then that over many issues!
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:01 am

Pacowy wrote:With all due respect - and probably not surprisingly - I would draw the opposite conclusion. If you look at the timeline it appears most of this guy's radicalization took place after the FBI had checked him out. By the accounts I've heard, he became persuaded that he needed to defend Islam. Is it possible that the initial investigation of him - at which time he had done nothing overtly terroristic (if that's a word) - was so heavy-handed as to contribute to persuading him that Islam needs to be defended?

I don't have any way to know what actually happened in the initial inquiry here, and I'm not offering this as a criticism of the FBI. My vote would be that when they become aware of someone who might be moving towards radicalization that they should go most heavily on emphasizing the freedom of religion that exists here. Like with a Muslim agent, or, if we're really lucky, an agent who is a reformed jihadist. And hopefully we're far enough along with gender issues that female agents will understand it's best to let the guys handle this one, and avoid trying to look the subject in the eye (...uh, at least if the subject is male). To me, the way to persuade a budding radical that mass murder is not needed to defend Islam is to demonstrate the respect for the practice of Islam - and other religions - that is embedded in our laws. An ultra-PC initial contact with law enforcement - "Here's my card - please let me know if anyone interferes with you practicing your religion" seems like a reasonable way to reduce the likelihood someone could become persuaded to go to war against American civilians over religious issues. My vote would be to roll out the Welcome Wagon until such time as it is known that the subject has passed a "point of no return" on radicalization.

Mike



So somehow it is our fault they became terrorist? I cant buy that. We gave these kids every opportunity to have a normal life. They had everything given to them. Their uncle described them the best as losers.
If someone has a watch put on them for suspicion of terrorism. They need to be questioned and followed. If they don't like that they can leave. I don't believe their views can be changed. It needs to be emphasized that they are welcome to be here but they need to respect our laws and people. If they do something against the US they will be hunted like dogs and found and prosecuted heavily. If they resist they will be killed. That is one area I do agree with what happened in Boston as far as sending everything we had to hunt them. It did show we will do whatever it takes to get them. I feel we have been to much PC with these countries. I agree with Doug we should pull up all of our stuff in these countries. This country can be energy independent. For some reason we kiss Saudi asses and yet most terrorists are from there. :mad:
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:09 am

Sorry if you thought I was joking dc! Tell me again how the white man treated the Natives???? Do you see any similarities there? No????? Look harder! Funny thing is---the aggressors won :( PS--ironically, the white invaders gave the Natives every opportunity to live THEIR NORMAL life also---hmmmm? just saying
dcrane wrote:
freetown fred wrote:Yep-- good point dc--being the good Native American that I am, I can only dream of what it would be like here today if all you fkers went back where you came from--how soon we forget & become legends in our own minds. We were doing just fine without the whole bunch of ya, don't ya know :notworthy: toothy


Ohhhh sure you can joke... most of these people come from daily lives in a war zone with death, mayhem and viciousness like most Americans cannot understand. Its a way of life and has been for generations for them! We can open the doors and give them free food and drink and let them relax at the spa and gym all day sucking on Pina Colada's but it WILL NOT change what is born and bread into their very exsistance & soul (WE ARE THE DEVIL!)

Do you believe the world is round Fred??? Is their any way possible for someone or someplace to seriously teach you the truth that the world is flat and you CAN and WILL fall of the edge if you sail to far east or west??? We will NEVER be able to change what they believe no matter how much we think we can! USA is the Devil... if you Fred could kill the Devil himself forevermore and make God appear on Earth for EVERYONE forevermore...would you give up your life for such an epic event as Jesus Christ himself walking the Earth again? As strong as these analogy's are... they believe these truths 1000x more then even how I've described it above! and were not changing that! SO.... do we still bring them all over here to live amongst our kids and raise them into our communities???? (remember...WE ARE THE DEVIL HIMSELF! AND BY SIMPLY KILLING THE DEVIL WILL BRING GOD, PEACE AND HARMONY FOREVERMORE TO THE UNIVERSE AND YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY SHALL SIT ON THE THRONE OF GLORY NEXT TO GOD FOREVER IF YOU KILL THE DEVIL!)

Times change and the world changes after 100, 200, 300 years and we need to base decisions we make on the world in which we live... we dont allow slavery anymore, we dont burn witches at the stack in the town square, we are accepting of how people feel & love each other even if they are gay (we even allow sodomy now :shock:).... their is plenty of precidence as to how and why laws, thoughts and actions are required to be changed through time. To simply say that because America has ALWAYS open to anyone and everyone because thats how its always been and thats what built us into the great nation we became is a closed minded, easy attitude. We need to think MUCH more proactivly and open minded then that over many issues!
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:47 am

dcrane wrote: NO.... just NO. I know what you say would appear to make fair, common and good sense BUT... You clearly have not served overseas. There is no sense we as Americans can or will ever understand :mad: (we need to gtfo of their shyt, come home and hunker down to take care of us and leave all them over their to enjoy their lives overseas). I cant even believe I paid for these @ssholes to live here (bad enough I have to pay for folks who really need help), clearly these dudes had more physical ability and stregth then I do (they enjoyed going to the gym everyday, working out like athletes, going to collage like it was their right, etc.) and somehow they are on welfare having their food, apartment, medical and dental care all paid for by your tax dollars! Are you freeeking shyting me! I'll say it again.... its a damb good thing im not president (because their would be a shytstorm of change happening)!


So you're concept is to forsake all the melting pot and freedom stuff and just keep everybody out? Hmmm, seems like you're the one in a hurry to capitulate to a small minority of extremists, so no, you don't get my vote for president.

I don't think you get to limit the discussion according to military service, and your point about some people in some other countries being hostile to us is completely irrelevant. There are loads of people from the Middle East who come here and live as highly productive members of our society. If I tell you I knew a guy from Iran who moved here, it sounds like you will jump to some unappealing stereotype before I have a chance to say he is a surgeon who singlehandedly probably saved a number of American lives comparable to the number lost in terrorist incidents. Your isolationist posture treats the 99% who are good citizens the same as the 1% (or whatever the exact numbers are) who are extremists, and is a type of profiling I will bet heavily you don't want to see applied to yourself as an American.

Speaking of Americans, you seem to be forgetting that one of the bombers is an American, the other one was here with legitimate aspirations of representing the U.S. in the Olympics. And, oh yes, there's also the fact that THEY DIDN'T COME HERE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST. My comments related to ways to address the type of situation that actually happened here. If you think it makes "fair, common and good sense" maybe you can revisit it after you figure out that there is no way to build the size of wall you're talking about, and no protection against the type of thing that happened here that such a wall would provide.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:17 am

Flyer5 wrote: So somehow it is our fault they became terrorist? I cant buy that. We gave these kids every opportunity to have a normal life. They had everything given to them. Their uncle described them the best as losers.
If someone has a watch put on them for suspicion of terrorism. They need to be questioned and followed. If they don't like that they can leave. I don't believe their views can be changed. It needs to be emphasized that they are welcome to be here but they need to respect our laws and people. If they do something against the US they will be hunted like dogs and found and prosecuted heavily. If they resist they will be killed. That is one area I do agree with what happened in Boston as far as sending everything we had to hunt them. It did show we will do whatever it takes to get them. I feel we have been to much PC with these countries. I agree with Doug we should pull up all of our stuff in these countries. This country can be energy independent. For some reason we kiss Saudi asses and yet most terrorists are from there. :mad:


I'm not saying it's our fault for this any more than it's our fault that, from what I understand, Timothy McVeigh was motivated largely by gov't tactics he had observed or encountered. I'm certainly not saying either situation justified the actions these individuals took. What I'm trying to say is that the liberties we have, and actually try to honor, may be a stronger motivating force in many situations than strong-arm stuff from g-men. While enforcing the law, we should try to make sure our tactics don't create unnecessary problems, and do make affirmative use of the strength provided by our freedoms.

The one guy was on a list based on a vague concern expressed by Russia. Putin has acknowledged that the info they provided was not actionable. When the guy was checked he hadn't done anything, and AFAIK his main focus was on boxing and getting on our Olympic team. I'm guessing the FBI, etc. had many individuals being monitored who looked like far better candidates. Obviously, the way that info was handled and processed needs to be reviewed, and appropriate actions taken if there were screw-ups. My comments tried to address the possibility that some of the guy's belief that he needed to defend Islam arose from the interactions he had with law enforcement at the time when he hadn't really done anything.

I'm happy to concur with you about the dogs, and about the likelihood that our increasing domestic energy production will let us reduce our profile in the Middle East.

Mike
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: plumb-r On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:41 am

Native american is a term people like to miss use, every ones ancestors migrated here at one time or another it's just a question of when. I had a great grandfather that was on a "list" because he migrated here from another country and he used to receive a newspaper from a questionable source (to keep up on things from the homeland) , so he was labeled as red and kept tabs on. This was in the late 1800's. I agree with the way things where done then. I think they should be done the same now. Any immigrant should be labeled, screened and watched. The more little flags that go up, the higher up the watch list you go. It was done 100 years ago Why not now? Citizenship should be earned like respect, not given. :?
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:08 pm

Natives never migrated from anywhere. They were nomadic & walked from place to place depending upon needs. This whole shebang was connected at one point ya see. :)
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Re: Explosions in Boston at finish line of marathon w injuries

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:55 pm

freetown fred wrote:Natives never migrated from anywhere. They were nomadic & walked from place to place depending upon needs. This whole shebang was connected at one point ya see. :)



My stance of not wanting any of my constitutional rights infringed is just because of history. Our govt has proven many times that if given 1 inch they want to take a mile. Exactly like what happened to Native Americans.
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