Terrorist Attack in streets of London

Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: jpete On: Mon May 27, 2013 10:26 am

I'm On Fire wrote:
jpete wrote:So you don't consider the US embargo of Japan an attack?

What do we call it when OPEC limits the supply of oil?


So, you think that the US should've funded Japan's war on China? And that's ok?

No, I do not consider an embargo on oil an attack. By your logic the trade embargo the US holds against Cuba is an attack. Cuba then has every right to imprison US people and point and fire missiles at Florida. :roll2:


Not selling them oil, and preventing them from getting oil anywhere in the world are two different things. We had every right to not provide Japan with support. But it's another level when we organize the rest of the world to do it.

The US is doing that with Cuba now. Not that I necessarily agree with the government preventing me from traveling or buy products from a particular place, at least we aren't preventing other countries from doing it.

That's the difference.

And the basic question is, what would WE call it if it were done to us? If the Arabs collude with South America, and put pressure on Canada to stop selling oil to the US, would we consider it an attack?

If the answer is "yes", then how can we be surprised when some other country reaches the same conclusion?
jpete
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon May 27, 2013 11:21 am

alot of good points here but just to clarify...Reagans attack against Libia was as targeted as possible, but we took out entire apartment buildings of civilians during this proccess (Reagan explained this was unavoidable in his efforts to "stop terrorists belief that they CAN attack US citizens with impunity"...whatever that means). He also went on to say after the bombing "I WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK AND THE GOOD, KIND AND NICE PEOPLE OF LIBIA WILL DIE ALONGSIDE THEIR LEADER AND THE TERRORISTS THEY ALLOW TO BE INVOLVED IN THEIR COUNTRY UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THESE BAD PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR BELIEF THAT ITS NOT OK TO ATTACK US CITIZENS WITH IMPUNITY"

Basicly Reagon did not give two craps about tearing up a country and collateral damage to its population (sure, he used as minimal force as he could to achieve the result... but he would have kept on going if needed!!! to hell with NADO, to hell with Russia telling us NO, to hell with the UN saying "this is not right"... Reagan did not care about ANY of them and bombed Libia anyways and took out hundreds of woman & children in that attack!!! needless to say it only required one attack because people knew not to *censored* with Reagan :mad: "Tear down this *censored* wall now before i *censored* you up the ass" .... wall came down that next week ;)
dcrane
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: jpete On: Mon May 27, 2013 12:24 pm

dcrane wrote: "I WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK AND THE GOOD, KIND AND NICE PEOPLE OF LIBIA WILL DIE ALONGSIDE THEIR LEADER AND THE TERRORISTS THEY ALLOW TO BE INVOLVED IN THEIR COUNTRY UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THESE BAD PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR BELIEF THAT ITS NOT OK TO ATTACK US CITIZENS WITH IMPUNITY"


Isn't this what the guy who stabbed the British soldier to death the other day said?
jpete
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon May 27, 2013 6:13 pm

jpete wrote:
dcrane wrote: "I WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK AND THE GOOD, KIND AND NICE PEOPLE OF LIBIA WILL DIE ALONGSIDE THEIR LEADER AND THE TERRORISTS THEY ALLOW TO BE INVOLVED IN THEIR COUNTRY UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THESE BAD PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR BELIEF THAT ITS NOT OK TO ATTACK US CITIZENS WITH IMPUNITY"


Isn't this what the guy who stabbed the British soldier to death the other day said?


By gosh i think your right Pete :shock: I guess the only real difference is these terrorisist can rally and attack eye for an eye with clevers and jack knifes while ole' Ronnie boy can attack eye for an eye with Squads of bombers, missiles and Nukes if need be (Hmm... I'll ask again... "whats the prob"??? why are we still under attack???)
dcrane
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: jpete On: Mon May 27, 2013 6:30 pm

dcrane wrote: why are we still under attack???)


Because the most dangerous person in the world is the man with nothing left to lose.
jpete
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: KLook On: Mon May 27, 2013 7:17 pm

Except maybe a man who never had anything to begin with. That is the problem with dispensing money amongst a bunch of goat herders with 3rd century educations and beliefs. They believe they can tear down western civilization and replace it with their idea of "life".

Kevin
KLook
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: wsherrick On: Mon May 27, 2013 11:47 pm

Taking in all of the current events and the nature of many of the posts here. It is obvious that the light of Western Civilization is growing quite dim. I for one don't feel guilty about being a Christian who knows who he is and where his culture comes from.
To even try and compare the history of Christendom and Western Civilization to that of Islam is absurd on its face. It is the infection of leftist thought that has invaded our Society and is destroying our ability to defend ourselves or to even remember who we are as a people, culture and a society. That somehow everything is equally valid because to say otherwise would be unfair, to adopt this approach is to turn off your mind.
To morally equivocate this Country, what it is and the ideals it was founded on to that of Islam, is openly disingenuous.
All of your ideas, ideas of justice, concepts of the individual and the self evident rights displayed by God and his Natural Law, comes from Protestant Christian Thought. No where else.
It is the great tolerance of Evangelical Christians and Protestants that created a society that would allow someone to descent, worship cow patties or be an atheist. Yet they are hated and judged.
The Protestant Reformation led to the Enlightenment which led to the idea that an individual is autonomous before God and his fellows. Thank Martin Luther for the modern world you live in.
I will not apologize or feel self hatred or guilt at being an American who holds fast to those Ideals.
I will not apologize for the desire to protect them or defend them against Medieval Barbarians from the 3rd World.

But you are being judgmental, you cry. Yes, I am. Reason demands that Reality be evaluated and judged. One's survival depends upon it. Humans have no other instinctive weapon except his Reason.
We have been so hammered with self hatred and self guilt for so long that it has become ingrained into the Body Politic. We bend over backward and publicly flagellate ourselves to prove we aren't racists or what have you.
To make a judgement, makes you suspect. To stand firm in your belief system, your culture, your language, and your heritage makes you a target. Well, I'm proud to be a target.
To adopt the current belief system that we are all bad so we must excuse nor defend ourselves from any one else; is to embrace the culture of Death. To live in a gray, foggy cloud of non judgement, of non thought is suicide.
wsherrick
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: dcrane On: Tue May 28, 2013 5:11 am

wsherrick wrote:Taking in all of the current events and the nature of many of the posts here. It is obvious that the light of Western Civilization is growing quite dim. I for one don't feel guilty about being a Christian who knows who he is and where his culture comes from.
To even try and compare the history of Christendom and Western Civilization to that of Islam is absurd on its face. It is the infection of leftist thought that has invaded our Society and is destroying our ability to defend ourselves or to even remember who we are as a people, culture and a society. That somehow everything is equally valid because to say otherwise would be unfair, to adopt this approach is to turn off your mind.
To morally equivocate this Country, what it is and the ideals it was founded on to that of Islam, is openly disingenuous.
All of your ideas, ideas of justice, concepts of the individual and the self evident rights displayed by God and his Natural Law, comes from Protestant Christian Thought. No where else.
It is the great tolerance of Evangelical Christians and Protestants that created a society that would allow someone to descent, worship cow patties or be an atheist. Yet they are hated and judged.
The Protestant Reformation led to the Enlightenment which led to the idea that an individual is autonomous before God and his fellows. Thank Martin Luther for the modern world you live in.
I will not apologize or feel self hatred or guilt at being an American who holds fast to those Ideals.
I will not apologize for the desire to protect them or defend them against Medieval Barbarians from the 3rd World.

But you are being judgmental, you cry. Yes, I am. Reason demands that Reality be evaluated and judged. One's survival depends upon it. Humans have no other instinctive weapon except his Reason.
We have been so hammered with self hatred and self guilt for so long that it has become ingrained into the Body Politic. We bend over backward and publicly flagellate ourselves to prove we aren't racists or what have you.
To make a judgement, makes you suspect. To stand firm in your belief system, your culture, your language, and your heritage makes you a target. Well, I'm proud to be a target.
To adopt the current belief system that we are all bad so we must excuse nor defend ourselves from any one else; is to embrace the culture of Death. To live in a gray, foggy cloud of non judgement, of non thought is suicide.



Stuff flows off Williams tongue like fine Poetry don't it :lol:
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: jpete On: Tue May 28, 2013 7:12 am

I thought "natural law" was the right to life, liberty, and property?

Seems contradictory to invoke natural law while advocating war against most of the world.

You'd think Christians would be more observant of the "Golden Rule".

I guess "turn the other cheek" is a nice philosophy on Sunday morning. The rest of the time it's "Kill 'em all, let God sort them out."
jpete
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Tue May 28, 2013 7:23 am

jpete wrote:I thought "natural law" was the right to life, liberty, and property? The rest of the time it's "Kill 'em all, let God sort them out."
No, that's pay taxes and die; and I thought it was happiness? I was always told you aren't entitled to anything...especially property. And what with the way things are in this country the only thing you are entitled to is paying taxes and dying. The second question; that's just how I feel all the time. ;)
I'm On Fire
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue May 28, 2013 8:10 am

The primary property that one owns is ones own self. If we are not entitled to that, we are slaves. And if we are not entitled to the full product and output and achievement of our own being and existence, we are serfs (if not slaves).
lsayre
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: freetown fred On: Tue May 28, 2013 8:21 am

I think the only right we have is to PURSUE all those good things that everybody thinks should be dropped in our laps. :( Also to have enough brains & motivation to make sure our voices are heard & to take a stand when necessary.
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue May 28, 2013 8:32 am

Despite many Libertarians (myself included) openly admitting that they came to Libertarianism via Objectivist philosophy, there has always been a massive rift between Libertarian political views and Objectivist philosophy itself. Nothing exemplifies this rift more clearly than the two groups opposing views on terrorism. I quote here regarding the Objectivist stance on terrorism (post 9/11) from David Kelly, who is a prominent Objectivist philosopher, and the founder of the 'Atlas Society':

"Civilization has always attracted parasites who want to steal wealth from those who produce it. But this phenomenon is different. The nihilists do not seek wealth for themselves. They want to destroy the wealth of others. They do not seek freedom from domination. They want to abolish freedom. They do not seek a place at the table of world commerce. They want to smash the table. They do not seek a better life. They glory in death. They represent the worst form of envy, the most vicious form of human evil. They hate us not for our sins but for our virtues, and they will not be appeased.

The United States and its allies must cease the policy of trying to counter terrorism by negotiation. Negotiation is an exercise of reason that civilized people use to resolve their differences. We are not dealing with civilized people. We must cease the policy of excusing their violence by their poverty and trying to buy them off with subsidies. We are not dealing with people who seek such gain. We must declare war on the terrorists and use whatever force it takes to render them incapable of posing any further threat. In the early 1800s, Thomas Jefferson sent the United States Navy to rid the Barbary Coast of pirates. We urge President Bush and the Congress to undertake a similar campaign not merely against the perpetrators of this outrage but against every nest of terrorists who have declared themselves, by the death and destruction they have wrought, to be enemies of mankind.

In doing so, we will be acting in our own self-defense, with the moral authority of those who have been attacked. But we should understand and declare to the world that we are acting to preserve a world order on which civilized values depend, and civilized peoples everywhere must join in this cause."

Source: http://www.atlassociety.org/assault-civilization
lsayre
 
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: samhill On: Tue May 28, 2013 9:25 am

Could it possibly be that the Christian way some think of destroying Islam is not so far off their way of wanting to destroy the West? One thing I was always taught was to know your enemy, sure there are some Muslims that are extremely poor & possibly school taught ignorant but we have the same here. On the other hand there are extremely wealthy there that we feed more wealth to & they choose to keep it (for the most part) to themselves. One might just be able to make a comparison there as well, odd how many of these ignorant goat herders (no offense to anyone) are now somehow doctors & other professionals living the good life peacefully I might add right here in the good old U.S.A.. Just a thought but a lot of this doesn't sound too Christian to me.
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Re: Terrorist Attack in streets of London

PostBy: dcrane On: Tue May 28, 2013 9:26 am

lsayre wrote:Despite many Libertarians (myself included) openly admitting that they came to Libertarianism via Objectivist philosophy, there has always been a massive rift between Libertarian political views and Objectivist philosophy itself. Nothing exemplifies this rift more clearly than the two groups opposing views on terrorism. I quote here regarding the Objectivist stance on terrorism (post 9/11) from David Kelly, who is a prominent Objectivist philosopher, and the founder of the 'Atlas Society':

"Civilization has always attracted parasites who want to steal wealth from those who produce it. But this phenomenon is different. The nihilists do not seek wealth for themselves. They want to destroy the wealth of others. They do not seek freedom from domination. They want to abolish freedom. They do not seek a place at the table of world commerce. They want to smash the table. They do not seek a better life. They glory in death. They represent the worst form of envy, the most vicious form of human evil. They hate us not for our sins but for our virtues, and they will not be appeased.

The United States and its allies must cease the policy of trying to counter terrorism by negotiation. Negotiation is an exercise of reason that civilized people use to resolve their differences. We are not dealing with civilized people. We must cease the policy of excusing their violence by their poverty and trying to buy them off with subsidies. We are not dealing with people who seek such gain. We must declare war on the terrorists and use whatever force it takes to render them incapable of posing any further threat. In the early 1800s, Thomas Jefferson sent the United States Navy to rid the Barbary Coast of pirates. We urge President Bush and the Congress to undertake a similar campaign not merely against the perpetrators of this outrage but against every nest of terrorists who have declared themselves, by the death and destruction they have wrought, to be enemies of mankind.

In doing so, we will be acting in our own self-defense, with the moral authority of those who have been attacked. But we should understand and declare to the world that we are acting to preserve a world order on which civilized values depend, and civilized peoples everywhere must join in this cause."

Source: http://www.atlassociety.org/assault-civilization


What a great quote that kinda puts some sense into complete senselessness for me. I feel like reading it all again and again, word for word because everytime I read this quote it enables me to understand that which is not understandable better. GG Larry :clap:
dcrane
 
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