Future Uncertain for Deep Mining

 
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coalstoves
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Post by coalstoves » Fri. Jan. 04, 2008 2:08 pm

coalstoves wrote:Modern day regulations will all but end deep mining in the area, most of the operations will not be able to financially bring themselves to comply this is sad and nobody wants to see it happen but time marches on .

Some Local Features on the Subject

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=188923 ... 2463&rfi=8

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=186457 ... 2463&rfi=8


 
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e.alleg
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Post by e.alleg » Fri. Jan. 04, 2008 4:49 pm

I'd like the government to intervene like they did with the airlines and the mortgage industry, how about pumping 10 billion dollars of bailout cash into the deep mines to help them meet all safety standards, that's what would help.

 
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Post by lincolnmania » Fri. Jan. 04, 2008 4:54 pm

as the economy gets worse, there will be more bootleg mining going on again......it goes on now....that bootleg coal burned nice hehe

 
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Post by Richard S. » Fri. Jan. 04, 2008 6:59 pm

I see the Wilkes Barre office always mentioned in these articles but have to wonder if it's really their fault. If for example there is something they overlook and that causes a death their ass is going to be on the line too. Not really familiar with the situation so I really don't know if there is politics or just over zealous enforcement involved.

I know one thing, if you give some of these guys a little bit of power and they'll take it to whatever limit they can. Been there, done that with the weights and measures guys, they'll pick out any little thing they can and/or be applying rules to something they have no clue about. For example I have compartments on the coal truck, the dividers can be moved to any position I want. I had them all the way forward once for a full load and the weights guy kept insisting I needed 3 weight slips... :lol: I swear he must have had IQ of about 50 as I explained it to him 5 times that since the dividers were all the way forward it was in fact one compartment, I really don't understand how anyone could possibly not understand how it worked and furthermore if the guy doesn't know how things operate he shouldn't be in the position to regulate in the first place. It took his "accomplice" to convince him I was correct.

 
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Post by pbmax » Fri. Jan. 04, 2008 11:49 pm

e.alleg wrote:I'd like the government to intervene like they did with the airlines and the mortgage industry, how about pumping 10 billion dollars of bailout cash into the deep mines to help them meet all safety standards, that's what would help.
How about pumping 10 billion into carbonless fuel source? Wind, solar etc. It would create new jobs that don't require hard-working people to go underground and get trapped and die.
If I had a windmill & good solar exposure I'd be happy to use my electric heat. But the electricity comes from coal anyway so ... I'll do it myself.

 
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Post by coalstoves » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 2:25 am

pbmax wrote: How about pumping 10 billion into carbonless fuel source? Wind, solar etc. It would create new jobs that don't require hard-working people to go underground and get trapped and die.
If I had a windmill & good solar exposure I'd be happy to use my electric heat. But the electricity comes from coal anyway so ... I'll do it myself.
I'll tell ya I'm no big fan of wind farms the goddamned things are hideous looking and from the little I know about them they are not without environmental impact . Give me a small reactor and a golf ball sized pellet of fuel and I'd be good for a long long time

 
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Post by Richard S. » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 2:30 am

coalstoves wrote: I'll tell ya I'm no big fan of wind farms the goddamned things are hideous looking and from the little I know about them they are not without environmental impact . Give me a small reactor and a golf ball sized pellet of fuel and I'd be good for a long long time
Agree and I don't think the government should be investing my tax dollars into any venture where a private entity is the going to be the sole recipient of any profits.


 
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Post by mike » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 7:10 am

Whats going on with these deep mines and msha is a shame. The state has two seperate sets of laws for bituminous and anthracite coal because A: they are two completey different things and B: they are mined two completey different ways. The federal government when it enacted it's coal mine safety laws in 1969 basicaly took the pa bituminous laws and used them. Every time someone died in either kind of mine the state looked at what caused the accident and if they needed too they wrote a law to prevent that from happening again. Now the feds are forcing these small mines to comply with these bitumious laws which have no bearing what so ever in a anthracite mine. What that does is make all those anthracite miners lost lives meaningless. If any body ever burnt soft coal and hard coal they will know the differences in the volatility of the coal right away. One big thing is bitty dust in large quantitys can be ignited while it's suspended in air, not so with anthracite. Another is bitty mines are a lot more gassy then anthracite mines. There are many more differences in the way the coal is mined and the general conditions of the mining operations. These two guys that run msha's wilkes-barre office won't budge an inch while enforcing these rules. If anybody wants to Know more you can pm me. A good movie out there is called Hard Coal it tells the story of whats going on with msha and the deep mines.

 
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Post by billw » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 9:30 am

I read that second article. A miner died in a Tremont, PA mine from a methane explosion. The govt is enforcing a law that requires ventilation to be run 24 hours a day to keep methane from building up. On the surface that sounds reasonable to me. I wouldn't want to go to work if there was a serious risk of explosion knowing the owner of the company isn't following regulations so he can save some money.

Maybe there is more to it than I'm reading but if thats what this whole thing is about I agree those safety regs should be followed.

 
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Post by Matthaus » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 10:55 am

Just ask the miners about what safety measures they want. Oops that wouldn't do, we won't need all the gov't employees justifying their existence and raising money to fund/grow their organization by fining those they inspect. IMO any agency that regulates anything should not be allowed to use one cent of the money they gain from fines or other penalties. This is like the fox watching the chicken coop, all such agencies should operate with the budget set aside for their existence.

As a society of people who perform less and less actual honest work we all are apt to have opinions on what should or shouldn't be done. Plus the media will always find a way to sensationalize and create a message that suits there agenda (selling more advertising by raising the ratings through any means).

We are talking about an industry with a handful of men doing all the work in harms way. Of course the family that lost that fella last year might be tempted to sue (or maybe not), but the point is mining coal is dangerous and performed by guys that take pride in doing it. The OSHA cowboy is a prime example of where all this goes and how the craft of the profession is lost. IMO we have no right to tell those miners how to make the mine safe and by extension neither does a government agency full of political idiots seeking to justify their existence!

I guess I'm just getting more ornery in my old age and my opinions reflect that! :lol: Let the Miners decide how to keep themselves safe and pass law that says no one can sue for accidents and the government can't interfere!

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Post by billw » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 11:36 am

I'll agree with you on two things. Most gov't employees at the state and local level are political appointees trying to justify their existence and the miners should be the ones that set the safety standards. Unfortunately safety standards will be set by either the government or the mine owners. The ones that put their lives on the line (the workers) don't get a say in those decisions and that always p*sses me off. Company owners will always do what's in the best interest of their bottom line whether it puts their employees at risk or not Hell, that's how the unions got started in the first place. I think that the miner that died might agree the ventilation should be more than just marginally maintained. I'm also getting long in the tooth and tired of watching good workers get screwed over for the sake of some manager's need to enhance his fricking annual bonus. :D

 
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Post by Matthaus » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 11:58 am

billw wrote:............. I'm also getting long in the tooth and tired of watching good workers get screwed over for the sake of some manager's need to enhance his fricking annual bonus. :D
That might be true for large corporations but deep mines are owned by little guys and worked by a close knit group of insiders, there is really no "us VS them" mentality or even need for it. I'm sure in the past there was a considerable amount of exploitation by the owners, but that was in a time when our energy industry was coal. Now it has become almost a cottage industry, a dying breed of tradesman employed in a pursuit based on tradition and family heritage.

Human nature is to have a certain amount of greed, but I would say that the deep mining industry exists mostly without that aspect of our nature. But irregardless of that the government has zero track record for fixing that, and unions cater to the lowest possible denominator, not the highest standard of work ethic nor quality.

So the endless battle rages on, meantime our government gets bigger and bigger and we as a society and country get weaker and weaker. :(

On a more positive note, at least we live in a country where this kind of discussion is not all but squashed by fear of prison for speaking our minds! :D

 
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Post by U235a4 » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 12:38 pm

Ok, here is the first political post i'll make and I will make it known that I'm so far right sided that some of my thoughts won't sit well with most people hence why I don't decuss politic threads and just go kick the trashcan. That aside I want say I believe in war now that said it amazes me that we have a goverment that will nit pick a job that has been done for over a 100 years over safety to make sure people live and has turn over most likely less deaths then the war we have been in the last two or so years..... kinda makes me laugh when the goverment talks about safety, WAFJ

 
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Post by billw » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 3:45 pm

Matthaus wrote:
billw wrote:............. I'm also getting long in the tooth and tired of watching good workers get screwed over for the sake of some manager's need to enhance his fricking annual bonus. :D
So the endless battle rages on, meantime our government gets bigger and bigger and we as a society and country get weaker and weaker. :(

On a more positive note, at least we live in a country where this kind of discussion is not all but squashed by fear of prison for speaking our minds! :D
At least not yet.

It sounds like we're comparing apples to oranges. I've been dealing with corporate management to long. You know the type, the darlings with the MBA's that never had a blister in their lives let alone put themselves in harms way. Those SOB's would pluck their mother's eyes out so they could come in under budget and pick up their annual bonus check. IMHO the best part of them ran down the crack of their mamma's butt. Anyway that's the most I'll say because I don't want to wear out the censor software.

 
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Post by e.alleg » Sat. Jan. 05, 2008 4:13 pm

pbmax wrote:
e.alleg wrote:I'd like the government to intervene like they did with the airlines and the mortgage industry, how about pumping 10 billion dollars of bailout cash into the deep mines to help them meet all safety standards, that's what would help.
How about pumping 10 billion into carbonless fuel source? Wind, solar etc. It would create new jobs that don't require hard-working people to go underground and get trapped and die.
If I had a windmill & good solar exposure I'd be happy to use my electric heat. But the electricity comes from coal anyway so ... I'll do it myself.
Just FYI you can buy a windmill for about $20,000-$25,000 installed that will supply all the electricity you could ever use and even sell some back to the grid. No pollution at all, just a 150 foot tower in the yard. Your windmill will be less ugly than a strip mine, that is for certain. The only problem is $25,000 buys a lot of electricity, so payback with a windmill (considering maintenance, repairs, and useful life span) is probably never.


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