Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

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Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:00 pm

You aren't quite accurate by your statement that the system would cost $28,000. The federal rebate program is 30% of the cost of a renewable system install directly off the amount of taxes you pay. The State rebate is 25 %. Same thing. You have five years to recover the amount. If you pay a bit of state and federal taxes, you can get all of the amount back. $15,400 back in rebates in taxe refund is possible with a system that size. New York also offers a $1.35 per watt incentive that is paid when the system is brought on line. In this case the one time incentive would be $9,855. So actually your system would only cost you $2,745. The numbers work much better that way :D
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:04 pm

We used 7626 last year. Electric water heater, clothes drier and kitchen stove. 2 Window AC units during the summer. Just the wife and I. We hang our clothes in the laundry room to dry. We use the drier very sparingly. We're on track to use 1000 kWh less this year. Some of that is due to using less AC over this past summer and installing led light bulbs in various fixtures. And I happen to be a ''light nazi'' too. The wife gets mad at me because I am always turning lights off. Yes, I am a cheap SOB. We have never used the electric radiant heat in the 27 years we have lived here and probably never will. Heated with wood for 7 years then switched to coal.
SuperBeetle
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark II
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Nut, & Stove Anthracite

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Scottscoaled wrote:You aren't quite accurate by your statement that the system would cost $28,000. The federal rebate program is 30% of the cost of a renewable system install directly off the amount of taxes you pay. The State rebate is 25 %. Same thing. You have five years to recover the amount. If you pay a bit of state and federal taxes, you can get all of the amount back. $15,400 back in rebates in taxe refund is possible with a system that size. New York also offers a $1.35 per watt incentive that is paid when the system is brought on line. In this case the one time incentive would be $9,855. So actually your system would only cost you $2,745. The numbers work much better that way :D


I've been told that installed total grid tie systems cost roughly 5 times the watts of the panels. In Ohio you only get the 30% Federal rebate to my knowledge.

6.750 x 5 = $33,750

$33,750 x 0.70 = $23,625

So I'll grant you that I overstated the $28,000 by a bit, but $23,625 is still costly.

But if you can actually get one installed for $2,745 out of pocket, I say go for it. I know that I would.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)


Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:46 pm

I'm in the process of putting together a 11.2K system now. The rebates and incentives were just raised from a 10k system to 25K system. The per watt incentive was just raised from $1.00 to $1.35. I'm getting the max allowed for my house. As far as Ohio not having a tax break for renewables, I wouldn't be so sure about that. They might not have the one time incentive but it is my understanding that if the federal tax rebate is able to be applied, then the state one would be also. Every state is supposed to have them under the renewables act. In my case, the factor holding me up is the replacement cost for a new roof. Don't want to install a system only to have to take it apart a couple years down the road. And I have been looking for a backup whole house electric boiler.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:50 pm

2 1/2 years ago we installed a 7K solar array. After rebate $17,500 out of pocket. We got the 30% federal rebate, nothing else as I did the install myself (losing the $2,000 state rebate, but saved 10 grand by making the racks & self install) I'm looking at a 10 year pay back on a system that's guaranteed 25 years and should be good for 40.... I won't be here to see! No batteries, grid tied. The extra power goes to credits that are good for one year. They do a 100% even trade but will never pay for extra credits. Our bill has been $6.85 a month (minimum paperwork fee), but I see this month it's going all the way up to $7.25. *smile*
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:59 pm

I see on Ebay that they sell the same panels as the ones I'm getting for $1000 per KW. The rack systems are pretty pricey but the overall system costs are dropping tremendously since only a couple years ago as the new manufacturing techniques and new suppliers are opening up the market. There are some really neat advances in the inverter parts also.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:01 pm

Scottscoaled wrote:And I have been looking for a backup whole house electric boiler.


Ouch. I fell out of my chair when I read that. If a guy with 7 EFM's in his profile is looking at electric boilers, have we reached the apocalypse? :lol:

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:20 pm

Photovoltaics on the roof, coal boiler in the basement. What's so twisted about that! :lol: :lol:
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:22 pm

How to cut your electricity consumption. Anything else I can help you with, just let me know. :D
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wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:36 pm

wsherrick wrote:How to cut your electricity consumption. Anything else I can help you with, just let me know. :D


How about a picture of the icehouse & outhouse? ;)
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:47 pm

Rob R. wrote:
wsherrick wrote:How to cut your electricity consumption. Anything else I can help you with, just let me know. :D


How about a picture of the icehouse & outhouse? ;)


That's why you pick a house with a stream, then you have running water. Look, we are solving all kinds of problems today.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Berlin On: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:23 am

what waste of tax $$. I can only hope that ohio doesn't push this stupidity with tax money like NYS.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: davidmcbeth3 On: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:58 am

Freddy wrote:2 1/2 years ago we installed a 7K solar array. After rebate $17,500 out of pocket. We got the 30% federal rebate, nothing else as I did the install myself (losing the $2,000 state rebate, but saved 10 grand by making the racks & self install) I'm looking at a 10 year pay back on a system that's guaranteed 25 years and should be good for 40.... I won't be here to see! No batteries, grid tied. The extra power goes to credits that are good for one year. They do a 100% even trade but will never pay for extra credits. Our bill has been $6.85 a month (minimum paperwork fee), but I see this month it's going all the way up to $7.25. *smile*


That's the problem with the solar systems ... ROI is far too long.

And, since everyone here is basically in the northern region, I have examined through FOIA requests responses of various PV government programs and contacting folks who did install systems that their ROI's were about 15-20 yrs. 'cause ya get no output in the winter months (what ~ 7 mos out of the year).

Our latitude on earth just makes it that way...very poor generation of electricity. If you are going to do this .. recommend you store the electricity produced ~ the only advantage of solar is for preppers. But then your stuck at that location ... which many preppers don't like.

So if interested before you listen to any "sales" pitches...do a FOIA request and contact folks .. people who install are generally happy to talk about their generation rates.

$17000 comes to 14 yrs for an avg e-bill of $100/mo ... yikes!
davidmcbeth3
 
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 503

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:44 am

davidmcbeth3 wrote:$17000 comes to 14 yrs for an avg e-bill of $100/mo ... yikes!



Of course every person must justify for themselves. I my case we were paying $130ish a month for power, hence the 11 year payback. We figured in 3 months a year of zero production. In actuality we've only lost a few weeks a year to snow cover. We still have never run our credits to zero.

As for justifying the investment we looked at it this way.... when we were in our 20's it was easy to get 10% interest on your money. Not so easy today. Then the idea that at any moment the government or society can make our dollars worth much less, we came to realize that the feds might change things so our money is useless, but they can't make our solar panels useless. For us, it made sense... we don't notice so much that our saving account is gone, but we sure as heck notice our electric bill is close to zero. If that money was still in the bank it would be paying us less than $350 a year interest..... three electric bills, more or less. By investing in the solar array we get 12 electric bills paid.

South of here it makes less sense.... Florida's electric rates are half what our are. They'd be looking at a 22 year payback! Germany is more north than New England, yet they are the solar capital of the world. I don't know what their electric rates are but they are pounding in the solar like nobody else.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Solar panels vs. Coal, a matter of perspective?

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:29 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Scottscoaled wrote:And I have been looking for a backup whole house electric boiler.


Ouch. I fell out of my chair when I read that. If a guy with 7 EFM's in his profile is looking at electric boilers, have we reached the apocalypse? :lol:

Mike


An electric boiler has the advantage of not requiring a chimney, and happily sleeping for years without the fuel going bad. Sounds like a good backup to me.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy