New Old Crane 404 Stove

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:16 am

Here is a pic of the underside of the stove. Looks like I'm missing leveling bolts and a heat deflector...

Suggestions? I'm also thinking of setting the stove up on 3" bricks to elevate it off the floor.

Image
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:42 pm

I don't know a forum that doesn't like pictures... no matter what the content is... (oh btw I asked a couple questions a few posts back! - HA)
I ground down some of the hard edges and rounded the lip just a bit. I used a heave wire wheel and not a grinder.
Image

I hope this burn pot doens't get stuck in the stove now!

Image
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: dcrane On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:48 pm

The flu collar is made to take a 6" stove pipe, it should have pre drilled holes for self tapping 10/32 screws (3 holes). Im a little Leary about those feet :shock: Now im understanding why the seller of this stove did not want me to be the one to buy it even though I offered more, faster, easier money for it than you... It appears this is "Hot" stove (pun intended :lol: ) which would explain no shaker handle, no feet, no holes in flu collar, no heat shield... A late night worker probably through together what he could and hustled it out the door before morning shift (it happened a lot with multiple shifts) toothy ... of course the seller knew who I was and most likely wanted nothing to do with me knowing who he was and how he got this unused stove (I assume the guy is over 45 years old?).

anyways... no biggie, you can drill 1/8 holes in the flu collar and your setting in the basement so just prop those feet up on some bricks or whatever (they should have been about 2" long with threaded carriage bolts running through them to level on an irregular surface hearth). I like to run my MPD in a 12" strait pipe that connects to this steel flu collar but everyone has their own opinions about placement and use of baro, etc. (id tell you to research "When to use manual pipe damper or baro" but it would only make you dizzy with no consensus of option in the end and you would see the forum light up like a xmass tree if you ask about it :taz: )

The pot wont get stuck in the stove for years to come (I personally would have used a grinder to actually grind slightly the entire outside surface to smooth it), as you can see the tolerance is pretty tight (tighter than it should have been in my opinion) and by at least getting that outside smooth you give yourself a better chance to combat any slight movement/expansion years from now.

At least we now understand now why maybe the Bridgewater guy did not want me to have this stove ;)
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:58 am

dcrane wrote:The flu collar is made to take a 6" stove pipe, it should have pre drilled holes for self tapping 10/32 screws (3 holes). Im a little Leary about those feet :shock: Now im understanding why the seller of this stove did not want me to be the one to buy it even though I offered more, faster, easier money for it than you... It appears this is "Hot" stove (pun intended :lol: ) which would explain no shaker handle, no feet, no holes in flu collar, no heat shield... A late night worker probably through together what he could and hustled it out the door before morning shift (it happened a lot with multiple shifts) toothy ... of course the seller knew who I was and most likely wanted nothing to do with me knowing who he was and how he got this unused stove (I assume the guy is over 45 years old?).

anyways... no biggie, you can drill 1/8 holes in the flu collar and your setting in the basement so just prop those feet up on some bricks or whatever (they should have been about 2" long with threaded carriage bolts running through them to level on an irregular surface hearth). I like to run my MPD in a 12" strait pipe that connects to this steel flu collar but everyone has their own opinions about placement and use of baro, etc. (id tell you to research "When to use manual pipe damper or baro" but it would only make you dizzy with no consensus of option in the end and you would see the forum light up like a xmass tree if you ask about it :taz: )

The pot wont get stuck in the stove for years to come (I personally would have used a grinder to actually grind slightly the entire outside surface to smooth it), as you can see the tolerance is pretty tight (tighter than it should have been in my opinion) and by at least getting that outside smooth you give yourself a better chance to combat any slight movement/expansion years from now.

At least we now understand now why maybe the Bridgewater guy did not want me to have this stove ;)

Oh no way! A "hot" stove it might be!!! I just hope it operates the way it should.... I think it will.

Before you responded to my questions I actually did do a search on this forum for draft control/damper/barometric etc and found a lot of information. I'm going to stick my damper in one of the pipes I can tell you that.... not quite sure if on the vertical or horizontal though.

I will tell you though that the inside area that the pot slides into seemed pretty well ground down. Almost like it was already done from the inside of the stove....

I have an 8"x8" clay flue liner that my stove pipe will connect to. The old owner had his old pipe/thru wall trim glued to it. Would a fire block/barrier such as this work for adhering the collar to the clay tile? http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... VGSP8767gl
Last edited by ASHDUMP on Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:21 am

It appears to me you already have a thimble in place, your in a basement... connect the stove pipe to that thimble (if your talking about sealing up the thimble better use mortar)
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:25 am

The existing stove pipe is rusted and corroded... better go new for this application... IT would make me feel better!

I just purchased this too -
http://www.farminnovators.com/page14.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


Found a guy on ebay... $16 bucks with shipping.

I was going to purchase this http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Heating-Cooli ... thermostat
but a little more money...

When the temp gets up to 78d in the basement any selected fan will kick on to help circulate the air to the farthest/coldest part of the basement.... then when the temp gets down to 70d the fan kicks off. I hope it works as described....
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:40 am

ASHDUMP wrote:The existing stove pipe is rusted and corroded... better go new for this application... IT would make me feel better!

I just purchased this too -
http://www.farminnovators.com/page14.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


Found a guy on ebay... $16 bucks with shipping.

I was going to purchase this http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Heating-Cooli ... thermostat
but a little more money...

When the temp gets up to 78d in the basement any selected fan will kick on to help circulate the air to the farthest/coldest part of the basement.... then when the temp gets down to 70d the fan kicks off. I hope it works as described....


Is it the stove pipe rusted or the thimble (the double walled part that goes through the concrete and into the clay liner?)... if its the stove pipe (easy peazy, just get new pipe), if its the thimble then you need to install a new thimble (little more work but pretty easy). Im not sure what that stuff is you linked here "http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... VGSP8767gl" (but thats nothing you want for this application)
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:06 pm

Right now the way its setup - 8" clay square pipe running horizontally from the basement wall to the vertical part of the flue. Inside that 8" square pipe is a 6" round stove pipe. The stove pipe has a collar on it that was glued to the end of the horizontal clay square. So there was no thru-wall thimble per se. The total length of the horizontal pipe is about 2 feet. So the horizontal clay square is also about that same length. The pipe, "collar", elbows are all corroded heavily. They need to be swapped out.

Thats why I was asking if anyone had experience with the fire barrier or fire block caulking. A lot of tradesmen use this product in the construction industry to block holes that are open in "fire rated" walls or ceilings. I would need to use something like this to get a new collar fastened to the 8" square clay.
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:17 pm

ASHDUMP wrote:Right now the way its setup - 8" clay square pipe running horizontally from the basement wall to the vertical part of the flue. Inside that 8" square pipe is a 6" round stove pipe. The stove pipe has a collar on it that was glued to the end of the horizontal clay square. So there was no thru-wall thimble per se. The total length of the horizontal pipe is about 2 feet. So the horizontal clay square is also about that same length. The pipe, "collar", elbows are all corroded heavily. They need to be swapped out.

Thats why I was asking if anyone had experience with the fire barrier or fire block caulking. A lot of tradesmen use this product in the construction industry to block holes that are open in "fire rated" walls or ceilings. I would need to use something like this to get a new collar fastened to the 8" square clay.


Now I understand... use 2000 degree furnace cement on it (not fire rated drywall caulking). since its all masonary basement walls you dont really need to worry about having an insulated thimble (if your so inclinde you can pack between the clay liner and the pipe your using that goes through the horizontal to meet the vertical flu)... I will say to you that when your replacing this important pipe make sure you do not send it to far through into the vertical clay flu (you just want get through the thickness of the vertical clay liner and seal around it with the best furnace cement you can get...NOT RUTLAND!)

I stink at explaining things in writting so if someone more elquant than me, if its hard to understand someone please speak up and fix my words for him.
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:06 pm

Here is a good pic of my situation...
Image

Now my only problem is finding a new collar... doesn't seem to be good ones anywhere.... might have to get something fabricated or see if the existing collar is still worthy.
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:10 pm

dcrane wrote:
ASHDUMP wrote:Right now the way its setup - 8" clay square pipe running horizontally from the basement wall to the vertical part of the flue. Inside that 8" square pipe is a 6" round stove pipe. The stove pipe has a collar on it that was glued to the end of the horizontal clay square. So there was no thru-wall thimble per se. The total length of the horizontal pipe is about 2 feet. So the horizontal clay square is also about that same length. The pipe, "collar", elbows are all corroded heavily. They need to be swapped out.

Thats why I was asking if anyone had experience with the fire barrier or fire block caulking. A lot of tradesmen use this product in the construction industry to block holes that are open in "fire rated" walls or ceilings. I would need to use something like this to get a new collar fastened to the 8" square clay.


Now I understand... use 2000 degree furnace cement on it (not fire rated drywall caulking). since its all masonary basement walls you dont really need to worry about having an insulated thimble (if your so inclinde you can pack between the clay liner and the pipe your using that goes through the horizontal to meet the vertical flu)... I will say to you that when your replacing this important pipe make sure you do not send it to far through into the vertical clay flu (you just want get through the thickness of the vertical clay liner and seal around it with the best furnace cement you can get...NOT RUTLAND!)

I stink at explaining things in writting so if someone more elquant than me, if its hard to understand someone please speak up and fix my words for him.

I completely understand what you are saying. If I send the new pipe to far into the vertical clay pipe I will lose draft performance and could potentially have a real bad problem on my hand. I'll have to look in to stove cement.

Here is a picture of inside the stove. It looks as though some "stove cement" was used around the perimeter of the stove that the burn pot sits on. Some areas are coming off... is that something I should be worried about? Do I need to fill the gaps? If so, with what?
Image
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:27 pm

their should be zero need to use cement on a Crane (they are solid welded steel stoves, the cast iron is purely decorative) so the 404 gives the décor of a pretty cast iron stove while having the durability and maintenance free ability of a solid welded steel stove. scrape that cement off and make sure that flange is welded underneath that cement (if it is, then no worries, if that flange is tack welded or stitch welded than you need make sure that seam is sealed with something because air WILL come up through the path of least resistance and that air needs to come up through the firebed and not around the outside of the firepot), their are secondary air holes along that flange (tiny round holes that should be visible to you (or under the cement) that should remain open for best burning performance (this is to allow a certain amount of secondary air to get over the firebed to allow secondary burn completion.

This is further evidence that the guy who sold you this stove was a bad apple (it clearly has a few issues because of the speed it had to be throw together and taken out the door fast and the fact some parts were missing or unavailable, like the carriage bolt feet) because they were in a room not accessible to a second shift welder. if that flange is not solid welded you should make sure its better than tacked (stitch welded with 1 inch stitches might be OK and use furnace cement for the rest). If its only tacked in place you need to take it to a welder mainly because the bar across the front and rear are structural support members for the stove (not simply to hold up a firepot).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:13 pm

dcrane wrote:their should be zero need to use cement on a Crane (they are solid welded steel stoves, the cast iron is purely decorative) so the 404 gives the décor of a pretty cast iron stove while having the durability and maintenance free ability of a solid welded steel stove. scrape that cement off and make sure that flange is welded underneath that cement (if it is, then no worries, if that flange is tack welded or stitch welded than you need make sure that seam is sealed with something because air WILL come up through the path of least resistance and that air needs to come up through the firebed and not around the outside of the firepot), their are secondary air holes along that flange (tiny round holes that should be visible to you (or under the cement) that should remain open for best burning performance (this is to allow a certain amount of secondary air to get over the firebed to allow secondary burn completion.

This is further evidence that the guy who sold you this stove was a bad apple (it clearly has a few issues because of the speed it had to be throw together and taken out the door fast and the fact some parts were missing or unavailable, like the carriage bolt feet) because they were in a room not accessible to a second shift welder. if that flange is not solid welded you should make sure its better than tacked (stitch welded with 1 inch stitches might be OK and use furnace cement for the rest). If its only tacked in place you need to take it to a welder mainly because the bar across the front and rear are structural support members for the stove (not simply to hold up a firepot).

Oh boy... I hope I don't have a "jalapeno" on my hands! (like a lemon in car terminology). Yeah, you can flame me for that one... I don't try that hard in real life - I swear.

So I just checked out the stove and scraped out all of the stove cement. It appears that parts of flange are tac and stitch welded. I'm not overly concerned with the integrity of the flange itself however I am worried about the air flow. Is 2000 cement a good option for a situation like this?
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:14 pm

Yep... 2000 degree cement is fine, the the critical part of that flange assembly is that front bar the runs parallel with the bottom of the top door opening (this area will fail if that bar is not welded good), make sure it has at least one inch welds along its entire length before you start burning coal in it. (however solid you may think it feels with tack welds... the heat from coal will pop tacks like toothpicks in an area such as that.)
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: New Old Crane 404 Stove

PostBy: ASHDUMP On: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:46 am

dcrane wrote:Yep... 2000 degree cement is fine, the the critical part of that flange assembly is that front bar the runs parallel with the bottom of the top door opening (this area will fail if that bar is not welded good), make sure it has at least one inch welds along its entire length before you start burning coal in it. (however solid you may think it feels with tack welds... the heat from coal will pop tacks like toothpicks in an area such as that.)

Great information Doug - I'll take a look at this tonight when I return home. I had my entire head in the stove sideways trying to look underneath the front part which I believe had sufficient welds. The two side pieces had larger stitch welds at the ends/corners and then smaller tac welds in the middle. The back had stitch welds too. How much of the voids should be covered? cover 90% of the voids?I didn't find any holes on the top flange like you had mentioned.

How does the front part (assuming the part near the door) have structural integrity other than just holding up the pot?

There are a total of 4 flange pieces: 1 on the left, 1 on the right, one in the back near exhaust and one in the front. All 4 pieces hold up the burn pot.

What kind of furnace cement do you recommend? I'm sure everyone had their favorites... I'd rather just go based off of experience and save me the hassle. Rutland seems to be the most popular but I don't mind ordering from ebay/amazon for the right stuff....
:?:
http://www.meecomfg.com/products.php#page=22
:?:
ASHDUMP
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Stove/Furnace Make: Crane
Stove/Furnace Model: 404