Is Warm Morning over-firing?

Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: AKShadow On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:06 pm

Hi Everyone,

Just got a Warm Morning 523 installed and running last week, but seem to be having some issues. I've never run this stove before, so I don't know what its typical operation is, but...

Here's the conditions: Running AK sub-bit coal, two-story 6" chimney, baro draft set at .04.

The "problem" (quotations because I'm not sure its a problem, or typical operation of stove): I loaded up about halfway in the firebox last night, and got it idling around 200 degrees stovetop temp. This went swimmingly for quite awhile, until the stove appeared to be over-firing. I had both the top secondary air slide door closed and the bottom primary air door closed, when the temp jumped up to over 400 degrees. At this point with no way to bring the temp back down, I waited it out.

So my question is, is the Warm Morning 523 not capable of idling at low temp consistently, do I have some failure in how I'm operating the stove, or do I have the draft set too high perhaps?

Any help appreciated as always!
AKShadow
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523
Coal Size/Type: Sub-bituminous, stove

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: AKShadow On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:13 pm

Also, Baro is adjusted to the max setting in order to reach .04. Would going down to something like .02 help with the temp control? And if so, seems like there's only two ways I could achieve that:

- install an MPD before the Baro
- *Questionable* Install two Baros? - Can this be done? Any safety hazards? Would the two Baros not operate correctly? Seems like they would compensate normally...

I've read in other posts that some Warm Morning owners have installed gaskets on the doors to help control air flow. Maybe this would be a good solution as well...
AKShadow
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523
Coal Size/Type: Sub-bituminous, stove

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: david78 On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:14 pm

I've never had a Warm Morning so can't say anything specific to that stove, but I wouldn't consider 400 degrees over firing. I routinely run temps like that in my antique cylinder stove. But if you can't get it throttled down to where you want it, then you probably have some air leaks, like maybe a loose fitting ash pan door.
david78
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Fuller & Warren Splendid Oak 27
Coal Size/Type: Nut

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Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:18 pm

The stove should be tight, as in if you close down all the air the fire should go out.
grumpy
 

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: david78 On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:19 pm

Just saw your second post. No problem running two dampers; that's the setup I use. Just have to put the MPD first. There's lots of posts on here about dampers; whether it's best to run just MPD, just baro, both, neither. You can read til your eyes cross. :lol:
david78
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Fuller & Warren Splendid Oak 27
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:22 pm

whether it's best to run just MPD, just baro, both,


No No stop, don't go there, the board will explode.. :eek2: :lol:
grumpy
 

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: AKShadow On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:00 pm

I wasn't thinking that 400 degrees was over-firing, just thought it was way too high of a temp when all air controls were completely shut.

the stove didn't come with gaskets, but it was also designed to be that way. I did read about at least one owner who found retrofitting gaskets helped. I forgot to note as well, this stove was completely "new" when I installed it, it had never been fired before. So in that case, I was assuming it should perform rather well. But the control doesn't seem to be what I had hoped.
AKShadow
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523
Coal Size/Type: Sub-bituminous, stove

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:03 pm

Seal it up, sure sounds like it leaks, some stove cement should help I would think.
grumpy
 

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: coalturkey On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:56 pm

I use a Warm Morning 523 and have for some time. You need to run an MPD and a baro. I have never used sub-bit but I have burned regular bit. As others have said, 400 is not high enough to worry about. When I burned bit it was yellow flame and smokey at the beginning but once it got going, it settled down well. Your stove is particularly designed to burn bit as it has the 4 chimneys in the corners. I know you need top draft used more with bit and I am sure that ther are many on this site who know a lot more than I as to how to handle it. Anyway, don't despair. The stove you have is a great stove and will do well for you. I can get a 72 hour burn with blashek and shut sown tight. No gaskets, just like it came. I hope this helps.
coalturkey
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Oakland #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: blaschek nut
Other Heating: Home Comfort range
Stove/Furnace Make: Oakland #6 Base Heater
Stove/Furnace Model: Home Comfort range

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: carlherrnstein On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:10 pm

Soft coal has tars and oils in it that cook out when first added to a hot fire but after they are cooked out all that is left is the spongy carbon skeleton that is called coke. So soft coal really has a two stage burn the first stage is mostly the tar and oil burning off and during this stage the air really needs to be heated and fed over the fire, during the second stage there is coke burning its carbon and the ash and it needs to have the air fed mostly from under the grate.

I would try adding 5-10 lbs or so of coal at a time till the fire gets built up then when you tend the stove add a little coal at a time and let the tar burn out part way so you don't get temp spikes after a reload.
carlherrnstein
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: combustioneer model 77B
Coal Size/Type: pea stoker/Ohio bituminous

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:10 pm

grumpy wrote:The stove should be tight, as in if you close down all the air the fire should go out.


true that^^^, try this and see if it goes out (close her down and see if that coal bed continues to burn), if it does than you have to assume its being feed enough air from someplace that your unable to get it down. as far as your 400 degree surface temp goes (that's not over firing it).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: AKShadow On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:02 pm

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

Thoughts:

I know 400 degrees isnt over-firing, but the question I'm trying to figure out is, why does the fire take off mid-burn with ALL air controls shut down. Carlhernstein is suggesting that the my loading operation needs to be modified per his suggestions. I will try that for sure. However, one question I have for Warm Morning operators is when you shut down your air, does the stove still pull and occasionally increase temps?

There are obvious cracks in the various places where different stove plates come together, but these are not "worn" parts. The stove is basically brand new, in that, its never been fired. So the metal parts are not warped or anything like that. It should be performing as it was meant to straight from factory. Which leads me to believe that this is either operator error, or my draft is set too high.

In previous threads I've read that .04 is a normal draft setting, but on a Warm Morning operators manual that was scanned in from one of the users on this forum, someone had hand-written that the draft be set to .02 per "Rich on 11/14/84". Is this something that's critical to operation? If that's the case I need to figure out how to limit my draft more, but unfortunately I have maxed out my baro's adjustment, and can't get it any lower. I don't want to use an MPD unless absolutely necessary. What about using (2) baros? Has anyone ever heard, done, or seen someone using two?
AKShadow
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523
Coal Size/Type: Sub-bituminous, stove

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:44 pm

There is no point in guessing and assuming there are no air leaks. You have to check. Close a dollar bill in the ash door at various places to see if it holds. Do you use a manometer to check the baro setting?
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: AKShadow On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:19 pm

Franco - I know there's air leaks, they're very visible. But that's not the question in my mind. These units obviously came from the factory as a non-air tight stove. So that being said, do operators find that they can use these stoves as they were designed (with said air leaks) and control the temperature adequately? As in, a temperature swing from 200 degrees to 400 degrees with all air controls (primary and secondary) shut down?

There are a few scenarios that then should exist, and which of these are true, is the nature of my question:

1) Warm Morning 523s operate with temperature swings while all controls are shut down as normal operating condition (this I find the least likely)

2) Warm Morning 523s operate with temperature swings only when loaded incorrectly (too much, too fast)

3) The barometric damper must be set to lower setting than .04 in order to operate correctly (like is suggested one of the WM operating manuals uploaded to this site, per a handwritten note from an unknown person identified as "Rich" on 11/14/84)
AKShadow
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523
Coal Size/Type: Sub-bituminous, stove

Re: Is Warm Morning over-firing?

PostBy: coalturkey On: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:27 pm

Put a manual damper on it.
coalturkey
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Oakland #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: blaschek nut
Other Heating: Home Comfort range
Stove/Furnace Make: Oakland #6 Base Heater
Stove/Furnace Model: Home Comfort range

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