Need advice for CO detectors going off.

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Xwoodburner On: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:52 pm

I looked at my info and a specific gravity chart

I also attached something that I found that best describes what I was taught
This is off the Internet

I believe the carbon dioxide will displace the oxygen and co at the floor level
So definitely don't plug the co alarm in there
As for the 5 ft height rule
I think the potential for warm rising air is in that concentrated area

Although the co may go higher its potential to be at that level is greatest
As well as that's the area we breathe air as wall

I also remember the co being trapped at that level
Co2 on the bottom
Oxygen at the top

I'm still digging as to why it gets trapped
Because 02 is heavier than co

Any help?
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Xwoodburner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Clayton
Stove/Furnace Model: 1600 m

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: titleist1 On: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:01 pm

I havent researched on this yet, but i believe the equal mixing of CO is mostly related to the very high percentage of nitrogen in the air. the weight of N2 and CO is about the same so one isnt going to sink below the other.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Xwoodburner On: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:32 pm

As of now
I've read many different opinions on this
They all seem to agree don't put the alarm close to the ground

Most say eye level
Some say ceiling level is also ok

But no science to explain why

I'll try to get an answer
Xwoodburner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Clayton
Stove/Furnace Model: 1600 m

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Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:32 pm

You may not like to hear this, but here is my opinion: Gases tend to mix rapidly through Brownian motion and van der Waals electrostatic forces, else the major components of our air such as nitrogen and oxygen and CO2 would not readily mix (and remain mixed) as uniformly as they do, and they would stratify out due to molecular weight and other differences. Based upon this, I would assume that these very same factors (forces) should be at work at the molecular level to readily mix and equitably distribute CO molecules introduced into air, rather than permit them to outright stratify and remain in a state of stratification (be it high or low) for any appreciable period of time. That said, the gas leaking from a stove will be hot when first emitted, so being hot, the CO would naturally tend to travel and rise with the other emitted stove gases before it can readily disperse and unify into the rooms cooler air, so at least in the immediate proximity of the emitting appliance and for some brief period of time it may rise before mixing and then remaining well mixed with the air. This may favor a higher positioning of the detector, but as I looked at various learned opinions of this there was no clear consensus. Some say high, some low, and some say it matters little. What matters most is having detectors, and making sure they are fresh (most wear out within about 5 years) and that the batteries (if battery operated) are fresh, and that they are periodically tested for function by pressing the test button.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:40 am

lsayre wrote:What matters most is having detectors, and making sure they are fresh (most wear out within about 5 years) and that the batteries (if battery operated) are fresh, and that they are periodically tested for function by pressing the test button.


I agree with Larry, CO is so close to being perfectly buoyant that it will mix evenly at a particular level of the home. But it does make sense to put them between 3 feet high and the ceiling since that's where we generally breath. CO from a heating appliance will most likely be warm so this also favors a higher position as opposed to the floor. Have them close to sleeping quarters so the alarm will wake you in the event of a problem.. :D

Also they are designed to endure a specific amount of time at a particular parts per million so that they aren't crying wolf all the time. Imagine if you had one close to a stove and every time you opened the load door it would wake the baby up.. AN alarm is meant to be taken seriously. An alarm that sounds when there really isn't a problem, isn't going to be... The ones with a display won't even show a reading that is under 30 ppm.... :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: dcrane On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:48 am

Lightning wrote:
lsayre wrote:What matters most is having detectors, and making sure they are fresh (most wear out within about 5 years) and that the batteries (if battery operated) are fresh, and that they are periodically tested for function by pressing the test button.


I agree with Larry, CO is so close to being perfectly buoyant that it will mix evenly at a particular level of the home. But it does make sense to put them between 3 feet high and the ceiling since that's where we generally breath. CO from a heating appliance will most likely be warm so this also favors a higher position as opposed to the floor. Have them close to sleeping quarters so the alarm will wake you in the event of a problem.. :D

Also they are designed to endure a specific amount of time at a particular parts per million so that they aren't crying wolf all the time. Imagine if you had one close to a stove and every time you opened the load door it would wake the baby up.. AN alarm is meant to be taken seriously. An alarm that sounds when there really isn't a problem, isn't going to be... The ones with a display won't even show a reading that is under 30 ppm.... :)


"EVACUATE, EVACUATE, EVACUATE" :lol: ... I hear this daily as I install these voice response C0's (required by law in MA now)

I certainly do not know molecular structure, engineering and that damb verbally mind blowing Chemistry talk like our overly educated resident Larry :cry:

I can only say what firemen like to see when im installing these... They like to see them on every level of the home, within 10' of every bedroom door, they must not be older than 10 years of age (you sometimes have to peal back or open it to find manufacture date), they prefer ceiling installation (on the flat, not on an angled ceiling), they DO allow plug in outlet type or mounting on walls still (but they do NOT prefer that installation).

right or wrong?....this is what I experience daily.
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:47 am

I re-read the CO thread in the best of category and came across this link to some testing....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21536403

in case of copyright issues i did not copy and paste the info here.

The conclusion of their controlled testing is that the co does not stratify and will mix readily with the air in the room so co monitor height is not critical.

common sense tells me the speed the co monitor alarms depends on how fast the air in the house mixes - so how fast is that...pretty quick in my basement sample test size of 1.....within 2 - 4 minutes!

my real world experience has a monitor plugged in 30" from floor level in the basement (ceiling height of ~7') about 8' from the stove. i had reconnected everything on the stoker this past saturday and fired it up to make sure it was all OK and i would be ready when it was time to light up for the season.

on the monitor prior to lighting i checked max level and it was 0, i reset it anyway. i saw a reading of 21 on it within 2 minutes of lighting the cowboy charcoal. i wasn't surprised since i had the door open with the combustion fan on to light the charcoal with a propane torch. and after closing the door i could see some of the sparks from the cowboy charcoal forced out around the air wash space on the glass while the manometer read .01 draft, exhaust probe in the flue was less than 100* at that point. as the cowboy coal caught after about 2 more minutes and the firebox warmed up draft increased to ~.03, exhaust probe ~110* and no more sparks through the air wash, monitor readout indicated 0, max reading was 21 which i then zeroed.

I turned off the combustion fan and opened the door and added a few shovels of rice coal to the grates over the cowboy coal. closed the door and turned the combustion fan back on. took about a minute, but while the door was open i could smell the cowboy coal although i didn't see smoke. i looked at monitor and the display reading still showed 0. i watched the grates to make sure rice coal was starting to burn good, waited about 3 more minutes before powering the controller so the feed motor would start. the reading on the monitor was still 0 but i hit the max reading button and it read 18. i am guessing the 18 was from when the door was open while adding rice coal but i didn't see that number show up on the display like i did the earlier 21.

i reset it back to 0, didn't open the door any more, the stoker got up to operating temp, draft rose to ~.05 (i don't have the baro in this time of year, i still have the T capped), temp probe on the flue went up to ~280*. the display and max reading stayed at 0 throughout the evening and the next morning.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:33 pm

I'd say that's a pretty thorough observation partner.

I have mine at nearly ceiling level of about 7 and a half feet since it was convenient to put them there. During times of draft failure last year, before I learned the add more secondary air trick, they both showed low level readings between 35-75 ppm.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Rigar On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:07 pm

larry (and lightning ) nailed it

...any where..essentially any height...is better than in a drawer trying to figure outwhere they should be located.
use connon sense...and by all means use more than one.
Our bedrooms have combo smoke/co. (by code :mad: )...and are in the ceiling
...however.in bedrooms..there is a dedicated CO detector. at about 30" up....the reason is as stated in previous post...breathing height (while asleep)

....hmmm
maybe i should put one near the couch! :lol:
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:05 pm

Rigar wrote:....hmmm
maybe i should put one near the couch! :lol:


:) good idea, i need one at 'recliner height' in the LR!

just to add to the info below....the co monitor i have at the top of the basement steps (open stairway - half wall on one side, railing on the other) did not register any co levels during the start up. presumably by the time it got upstairs it had mixed enough to get below readable levels.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:12 pm

Ut oh, You get sent out to the couch often?? :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Rigar On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:54 pm

titleist1 wrote:
Rigar wrote:....hmmm
maybe i should put one near the couch! :lol:


:) good idea, i need one at 'recliner height' in the LR!

just to add to the info below....the co monitor i have at the top of the basement steps (open stairway - half wall on one side, railing on the other) did not register any co levels during the start up. presumably by the time it got upstairs it had mixed enough to get below readable levels.



make sure its workin right
...i know they only last 3 to 7 years. or somewhere inbetween :lol:
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Rigar On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:56 pm

Lightning wrote:Ut oh, You get sent out to the couch often?? :lol:



....no ...not at all
shes a light sleeper.... I'm a hard sleeper

... she likes to sleep with a light on
... I like to sleep with ..... NEVERMIND!!
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Xwoodburner On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:15 pm

So far I agree about the level not being so important
Even though I was told different

I do remember him explaining that in specific situations where
Oxygen would rise
And co2 would drop
No one in the room questioned this and I wish I would have
Even though the event may be far and few inbetween,
If it could happen, I'd keep it at eye level just in case
Especially if everyone is saying it don't matter where you put it

I'm looking into it
Because if he can prove to me why
i ll know he knows his *censored*

So many other people have varying opinions
And seemed the have the science to back it up
Xwoodburner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Clayton
Stove/Furnace Model: 1600 m

Re: Need advice for CO detectors going off.

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:16 pm

I think the take-away message is that anyone that burns a carbon-based fuel needs to have a CO detector mounted near the appliance, and preferably a second one near the sleeping area.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

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