Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: lephturn On: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:21 pm

Hi Rob... Yup we are in the same house and Hindsight says I should have probably used oil for the 2yrs BUT being introduced and using coal and keeping my LL Pocono for my garage has been a great experience so far. I did do some insulating and Making storm windows to come down a bit on my heat load. That Figure was done using blowerdoor and wrightsoft softwares heat load calculator. It used design temps of -5deg max low temp and average 34.8deg daily temp ( done by location of my home) By the looks of it, the calculator weighs all of the info but uses the lowest outdoor temp for 65% of its calc. I fed it all types of info from roofmaterial, to insulation, direction of home and windows to # of doors, water heat needed etc.. and that is what it gave me.. My friend is a ACCA BPI certified contractor who may I add thinks Coal Sucks. That is OK because my feelings do not get hurt easily especially when I heated my home last year for 1200.00 and he used 3500.00 in fuel oil and another 1000.00 in propane. :D
Min was 28.5tu/h from a start update of Oct. 20 to to the max of 97.5Kbtu/h on Jan 25 Those are just averages and definitely gets anybody in the ballpark
lephturn
 
Stove/Furnace Make: still deciding

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: lephturn On: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:25 pm

Yes Riello all the way Even Carlin before Becket but Hey.. At least it is new and not some 40yr old jelopy like I have in there now as a back up to my Pocono
lephturn
 
Stove/Furnace Make: still deciding

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: kstills On: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:43 pm

How much mass is in your system, do you know?

I have ~75 gallons in the pipes and radiators, and I haven't ever had a problem, even when I was running the boiler without the primary-secondary setup that I put in over the summer. However, with the mass I have, I'm constantly fiddling with valves to avoid shock (which Matt says is not an issue with a welded steel boiler) and low water temperatures when the water gets back to the boiler.

Rob swears you can control that with valving, I'm trying to do it with my old boiler.

If you think you're indirect would be a problem, pipe your primary loop through it. You'll never run out of hot water that way..... :)
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: Wiz On: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:17 pm

I've got only good words for keystoker. Great product, excellent quality boiler very quiet operating unit. Customer service is top notch and answers any questions you may have. I've got 3 women taking 20 min showers in the morning and there's plenty of hot water for me. Either choice you make they are both great units.
Wiz
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker Ka 6
Coal Size/Type: Casey Junk Coal :(

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: oilman On: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:25 pm

Actually, with an indirect, the water content isn't as much of an issue if on priority. With a coil, water content is everything. Actually, K-2's and 4's should really have a coil booster tank for best performance.
I'm assuming you have a light mass system.(ie: copper BB) If you have a cast iron system I would go with the Keystoker.
Like I said, a priority control is a must.
The LL 110 is a nice compact unit for most small homes.But- near boiler piping and control stratagy are very important with this unit as the larger water content boilers are forgiving of poor installation practices, where low-mass are not.

I concur on Riello. ;)
oilman
 

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: 331camaro On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:41 am

i love my ka-6, and have had great help from keystokers customer service, very helpful. either way, i dont think you can go wrong
331camaro
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker k6
Coal Size/Type: rice

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: McGiever On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:04 am

oilman wrote:Actually, with an indirect, the water content isn't as much of an issue if on priority. With a coil, water content is everything. Actually, K-2's and 4's should really have a coil booster tank for best performance.
I'm assuming you have a light mass system.(ie: copper BB) If you have a cast iron system I would go with the Keystoker.
Like I said, a priority control is a must.
The LL 110 is a nice compact unit for most small homes.But- near boiler piping and control stratagy are very important with this unit as the larger water content boilers are forgiving of poor installation practices, where low-mass are not.

I concur on Riello. ;)


IMO, the best unbiased advice sofar is from oilman. :)

FYI...Priority Control for DHW to an Indirect HWH means...the home's space heating gets put on hold until the (Priority) DHW heating gets satisfied.
In modern boiler controls, Priority selection is as simple as adding or removing a panel jumper...or even just the flip of switch. :D
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:26 am

McGiever wrote:
oilman wrote:Actually, with an indirect, the water content isn't as much of an issue if on priority. With a coil, water content is everything. Actually, K-2's and 4's should really have a coil booster tank for best performance.
I'm assuming you have a light mass system.(ie: copper BB) If you have a cast iron system I would go with the Keystoker.
Like I said, a priority control is a must.
The LL 110 is a nice compact unit for most small homes.But- near boiler piping and control stratagy are very important with this unit as the larger water content boilers are forgiving of poor installation practices, where low-mass are not.

I concur on Riello. ;)


IMO, the best unbiased advice sofar is from oilman. :)

FYI...Priority Control for DHW to an Indirect HWH means...the home's space heating gets put on hold until the (Priority) DHW heating gets satisfied.
In modern boiler controls, Priority selection is as simple as adding or removing a panel jumper...or even just the flip of switch. :D


Priority for the indirect certainly helps a smaller boiler produce adequate DHW....but it isn't much fun when a family of 4-5 takes showers on a breezy subzero morning. I went through this in my dad's house, the 3 section oil boiler would run non-stop serving btu's to the indirect, and the house would cool...eventually some preset time limit in the control would be reached, and it would allow the other zones to run...which by then were cold and would reduce the boiler temperature enough to impact DHW production. It only happened on really cold mornings when there was a lot of DHW being used, but I figured it was worth mentioning. The good news is that the issue has not reoccured in the last three years...ever since I installed a boiler with enough capacity.

I don't really prefer one of the boilers (LL110 or K4) over the other, but I do think you need to be thorough and explain the size & configuration of your home/heating system to the dealer/installer. Make sure they know what the load is, and ask if they guarantee a warm house and hot showers in January.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: McGiever On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:37 am

But Rob, what do you think the out come would have been on that same January morning had there been no Priority for DHW?

Point being...something has to suffer if there is situation of not enough total capacity for full output required.

Or, your point is that w/ enough capacity/mass, Priority control could work if even needed ;)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:29 am

Rob R. wrote:
McGiever wrote:Priority for the indirect certainly helps a smaller boiler produce adequate DHW....but it isn't much fun when a family of 4-5 takes showers on a breezy subzero morning. I went through this in my dad's house, the 3 section oil boiler would run non-stop serving btu's to the indirect, and the house would cool...eventually some preset time limit in the control would be reached, and it would allow the other zones to run...which by then were cold and would reduce the boiler temperature enough to impact DHW production. It only happened on really cold mornings when there was a lot of DHW being used, but I figured it was worth mentioning. The good news is that the issue has not reoccured in the last three years...ever since I installed a boiler with enough capacity.

I don't really prefer one of the boilers (LL110 or K4) over the other, but I do think you need to be thorough and explain the size & configuration of your home/heating system to the dealer/installer. Make sure they know what the load is, and ask if they guarantee a warm house and hot showers in January.


I've been giving this some thought myself, since the family has expanded since I installed the WL 110. Based on another thread, I'll be putting in a blending valve, run the indirect up to 150 and figure that will cure all my DHW and cold temperature potential problems.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: whistlenut On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:43 am

This is a REAL dilemma if the output is maxed out during normal periods and no reserve for the -10 days that are coming. It could be as simple as going up one boiler size like the LL 220 or a K-6. There is no price affixed to 'Peace of Mind'. That is why the EFM 520 or the AHS 130 or AA 130 or a K-6 or K-8 are so popular. The BTU load is the most important decision......AND the possibility of having THREE ladies unhappy would tip the scale for any intelligent male person. I was in a home yesterday that has solar, coal boiler (small) and an 800 gallon insulated tank. VERY impressive and no issues all winter ....or summer. This family is waaaay ahead of the curve on the IQ scale, but know you need to know the real deal and affordable comparability. I'd check into prices of the next size, and never look back. :idea:

We ALL know what day it is....thanks to the Geico camel, so relax and don't chew those finger nails to the bone. This is NOT life threatening, however going for the 'short dollar' could cost waaaaaaaay more than the long dollar in years to come. Does anyone ask why a big diesel has a 9 gallon crankcase capacity and not a nine quart one? The GD(gosh darn) bean-counters lost out to knowledgeable engineers. The Fram commercial: Pay me now ....or REALLY pay me later................ :idea: :idea:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:48 am

McGiever wrote:But Rob, what do you think the out come would have been on that same January morning had there been no Priority for DHW?

Point being...something has to suffer if there is situation of not enough total capacity for full output required.

Or, your point is that w/ enough capacity/mass, Priority control could work if even needed ;)


My point is that a priority control is not a cure all for an undersized boiler...especially in an older home that can drop a few degrees in an hour on a cold windy day. In a modern "tight" house the heat load might be considerably less than the peak DHW load...especially when the master bath has a 60 gallon soaking tub. In this case a priority control improves DHW recovery and the house temp. holds steady.

Regardless, as you said it is just the flip of a switch either way. Use whatever works best.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:21 pm

This thread has proven the engineering done by Leisure Line for their furnaces and boilers as more than adequate for any situation or circumstance. For example, you can buy the AK-220 or the WL-220 and use either one burner or both depending on load. The WL-220 has a whopping 42 gallon water capacity, far exceeding the 12 gallons for the WL-110 and besting the 34 gallons of the Keystoker. The boiler can be run with one burner lit or you can light the second burner, a real Jekyll and Hyde type of heating appliance. A mild-mannered boiler by day sipping coal, or a beast by night mercilessly eating all the coal in London!

There you have it, buy the WL-220 and get two boilers in one!
EarthWindandFire
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Lil' Heater.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 75.
Other Heating: Oil and Natural Gas.

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:37 pm

To be fair, here, if you're going to bring in a bigger LL, the bigger Keystokers have even higher water capacities - 55 gallons for the KA-6 and 74 gallons for the KB-8.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Keystoker KA-4 or LL wl110 ?? Buying Friday

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:41 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:This thread has proven the engineering done by Leisure Line for their furnaces and boilers as more than adequate for any situation or circumstance. For example, you can buy the AK-220 or the WL-220 and use either one burner or both depending on load. The WL-220 has a whopping 42 gallon water capacity, far exceeding the 12 gallons for the WL-110 and besting the 34 gallons of the Keystoker. The boiler can be run with one burner lit or you can light the second burner, a real Jekyll and Hyde type of heating appliance. A mild-mannered boiler by day sipping coal, or a beast by night mercilessly eating all the coal in London!

There you have it, buy the WL-220 and get two boilers in one!



Now they tell me.... :P

Ah, just looked at the WL220, and it's too tall for my install. I can just barely get the 110 in my basement.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Visit Lehigh Anthracite