Looking for Boiler Advice, and Possibly a Some Other Advice.

 
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McGiever
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Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Sun. Nov. 17, 2013 8:45 pm

Some like Fords...some like Chevys :)


 
imcloud1
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Post by imcloud1 » Mon. Nov. 18, 2013 7:08 pm

Yes a Geo system would be much better than humping coal, lol... I have installed some very serious geo systems, but the problem is the cost starts at $30K for a small home with "easy" wells and I have installed 2 that were over $90K each {solar/geo's, one of the systems was in a 9K sq ft home and they are heating and cooling their house for under $2500 per year}...

Your coal system can be an interesting install, I am curios to see the route you take... good luck..

 
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Rob R.
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Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Tue. Nov. 19, 2013 5:28 am

On a side note, how are the old Axeman Anderson 130s? How would they compare to a EFM 520 for instance? Maintenance, efficiency, failures etc.... They seem to have a certain following like any of the brands Im sure. I just again, don't know much about them in general.
The are both excellent units. Keystokers and Van Werts are very nice as well. The AA units burn pea or buck size coal, the others burn rice or buck. I think the AA wins the prize for requiring the least ceiling height, and Keystoker probably has the fewest moving parts (and the least expensive).

 
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McGiever
Member
Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Tue. Nov. 19, 2013 8:12 am

And if important; of the 4 mentioned above, auger feed on all but the Keystoker. ;)

 
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GoodProphets
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Posts: 226
Joined: Sat. Jan. 07, 2012 9:14 pm
Location: Lanc Co PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Anthra Rice
Other Heating: 3 Fireplaces

Post by GoodProphets » Tue. Nov. 19, 2013 10:54 am

OP was asking about price on a new EFM 520

They are in the 10K range. Maybe a lil less depending on source.

If you are going the DIY route, that one on CL for 7500 sounds like a good price, just check
on things and make sure it has all parts including the DHW coil.

But if you are going DIY and NEED to save money, a refurbed unit will be considerably less.
There are a few pros that actually refurb them on the forum.
Easily get one for half price range.

If you want to refurb yourself, it will be a task and like you mentioned,
start as early as you can in spring so maybe if your lucky you can run by fall/winter next year.

 
Mikeeg02
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Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Mon. Nov. 25, 2013 9:37 am

McGiever wrote:And if important; of the 4 mentioned above, auger feed on all but the Keystoker. ;)
I believe the Keystokers use the traditional stoker bed and feed system, similar to my Alaska Stoker II Im running now, unlike the AA and EFM that use the bottom feed bowl type.

Just for fun, I browsed the internet and found a price on some of that thermopex stuff. 300' of 1 1/4 is $4,500!??! Those people sleep well at night on a mattress made of 100 dollar bills. I think Ill use pipe insulation and tape all the seams myself.

On a side note, my Alaska is working well in the basement. I cut two floor vents up to the first floor, and its been 17-18* here the last couple nights. Kept the house up at the 71-72* mark. Pretty happy with that.

I talked with my home owners insurance guy friday, to adjust the insurance for my new building. Hes an old coal guy from Clearfield, PA. He was pretty happy about how the AA's worked. And from what I am seeing here, it seems they are pretty even between them and the EFM's. So I think whats going to happen is Ill keep cruising the classifieds for the rightly priced one in the right condition. Since I have plenty of time. And in the meanwhile, Ill build the plumbing, and all I will need is the heatsource. I appreciate all the helpful information here so far. Its always good to get information from those who "have done it this way" then from those who "would do it this way".

 
Mikeeg02
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Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Oct. 01, 2014 10:12 pm

Bringing back a thread of mine from last year. I picked up some coal this week, and I am putting up my chimney friday, so time to fire the AA is on the near horizon. I had planned on doing the radiant floor with a 3 way mixing valve, but before I placed another order it hit me. If I put sub 100 degree water into my concrete floor, the return temp will certainly be less then that. Now my circulator for this loop should push between 5-6 gpm (trusty ol 007) So my question is, is that cool water a bad idea for the return into a 130, at 5-6 gpm. Or will it recover from that just fine? With this setup, am I flirting with disaster?

So next step I started looking into 4 way mixers, which seems like a possible idea, though from most diagrams I have come across, seem to show requiring a second circulator pump. Is that correct? Or can that single loop using a 4 way mixer get away with one circulator still?

After a few more hours of searching, I found earlier in this thread, that perhaps I should use an additional circulator to a heat exchanger, then do the floor loop post the exchanger, and use a 3 way mixer how I origionally intended. Just after going through a heat exchanger. Which I would @$$ume would require a slightly faster circulator on the boiler loop, then the 007 on the supply loop.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions? I just want to do this right the first time, though I am a little scared of the 4 way mixers with controls. Which from what I can tell easily adds 700+ cost to this system.


 
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McGiever
Member
Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Wed. Oct. 01, 2014 10:33 pm

Proper plumbing arrangement can solve the cooler return water temps.

Automatic controlled mixing valves can do the job for some dollars...but some here would say just plumb in a Boiler Bypass loop w/ manual valves or use a thermostatic 3-way mixing valve. :idea:

Image

Click-able Link Below:
Increasing the Heated Mass to Improve Heating Efficiency

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Oct. 01, 2014 11:01 pm

McGiever wrote:Proper plumbing arrangement can solve the cooler return water temps.

Automatic controlled mixing valves can do the job for some dollars...but some here would say just plumb in a Boiler Bypass loop w/ manual valves or use a thermostatic 3-way mixing valve. :idea:

Image
The thermostatic 3way was my original plan, and I suppose that slows the return water back to the boiler on that loop. is that acceptable to run such cool water back into the boiler, since it would be at a slow rate. Since most of the circulated water is recirculated to mix?

Probably just over thinking this. It looks like the I series tekmar 4 ways are in the 400 range as an alternative option. Again, just want to do this correctly.

The other setups I have seen use 3 way thermostatic mixers. One type are the geothermal, which are it ok with cool temperatures, the other is a used oil boiler that I don't know much about it's actual boiler construction.

 
User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Wed. Oct. 01, 2014 11:13 pm

One thing with the 4 way Tekmars is you wouldn't need to be constantly reading temp gauges and then manually tweaking valves accordingly all the time.

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Oct. 01, 2014 11:21 pm

They come in two flavors. I can only assume the outdoor reset type would be the one I want? Because they vary the supply temperature based off of an outdoor temperature curve? As apposed to the constant temperature type. Without setting either type up in previous, I am open to suggestions. I like things that work. And having one less thing to not have to constantly adjust is worth the 400 potentially. Until I found the I series it was looking like almost double that.

 
Lu47Dan
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Posts: 286
Joined: Wed. Jan. 29, 2014 1:42 pm
Location: N/W Pa. Meadville, Pa.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Post by Lu47Dan » Wed. Oct. 01, 2014 11:27 pm

You can solve the sub 100°F return temps to the boiler by running a heat exchanger and a storage tank that holds 3times the volume of the floor.
I am going to build shell and tube heat exchangers from some 16" pipe I have here. The shell will hold the fluid for the floor and the tubing will carry the boiler water. The boiler water will be running at around 180°F , the boiler loop will have a bypass to allow the fluid to circulate when the floor is not demanding heat. This requires more controls but allows the return water to stay higher.
You can buy the storage tank with a coil built in.
Dan.

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Oct. 22, 2014 11:53 pm

We are up and running. In the shop anyways. Boiler, and floor loops have been flushed with a ~20% propylene glycol mix. The house loop is next. For now, the shop is slightly warm at 70* on the stat, and the floor for heat. May drop it down 2* and see what that feels like. Water is going in the floor now at 90*. AA is happy with the low side of the triple stat at 140. (Not using the floor to turn the burner on. It moves such little water.) And keeps the boiler temp right about 145-150. Ashes look good for starting it last night.

New chimney seems to be working just perfect. Manometer of course is getting connected friday at the latest. Ended up with 8x8 liner, and insulated with vermiculite as we stacked it. 3' above the peak, and ~16' of chimney from the boiler.

Nevermind the open "panel box". Since my AA is mounted kind of backwards (electrics at the wall) I decided to run everything to an easily accessible area for future mods/trouble shooting. Instead of having to try and cram behind the wall, I can stand up and do it right there.

Sorry for the long winded post. Excitement is high! 8-)

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Last edited by Mikeeg02 on Sat. Apr. 01, 2017 5:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: uploaded pictures

 
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Rob R.
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Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Thu. Oct. 23, 2014 6:00 am

Mike, please upload your pictures directly to the forum. Linking them from external sites causes problems later on when the links get broken. By uploading them here people will always be able to read the story and see the pictures.

Your install looks good. Nothing beats the feel of radiant heat in a shop, and the AA will also put out a fair amount of heat.

How much room is behind the boiler? From the angle in your picture it looks like accessing the ash linkage or auger chain would be pretty tight.

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Thu. Oct. 23, 2014 7:42 am

Thanks for the picture edit. I'll have to learn how to upload to the forum. Every other forum I have ever been on required external linking, unless you were a premium paid member.

I haven't measured that gap, but I can lay on my side behind there. But there isn't anymore room then that. I had that concern too, and that was why I extended and rewired the unit to that currently open panel, for easy access. Adjustments behind the unit winter be pleasurable, but I did install the ashing assembly with the unit in place, so it is possible to work back there. The auger chain and auger removal happens from the fan side. There's plenty room between the doghouse and the AA to get in and do what I need to do. That was how I put it all together.

Just want to thank everyone for the help along the way to get me where I am now !


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