Looking for Boiler Advice, and Possibly a Some Other Advice.

 
Mikeeg02
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Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 1:05 pm

I have been lurking for a while, and been doing a lot of reading. We burned coal growing up and I remember servicing our Harman stoker. After all my reading here, (and a free older alaska stoker that I refurbished, and upgraded care of the info here) I am now building a garage. Background story; I installed a heat pump in the house a few years ago, and used my oil boiler to help during the cold cold winter days when heat pumps don't do well. I acquired that Alaska stove and installed it in the basement for this winter, and pulled out the oil boiler. Now I am building a 36'x48'x12' detached garage and will be insulating it (R-30 ceiling, R-19 walls, 2" foam below the Slab) and am planning on heating the floor (pex in the concrete). Im looking to put the boiler in the garage and probably seal it in a room to have code allow it. I also intend on running insulated pipes between the house and the garage for additional secondary heat. I would like to keep the hot water baseboard in the house running through this. The house is about 1000 square feet above grade, and a little less for the basement. Typical 40's house, not well insulated, though the attic is R-30 blown insulated. So I am looking for some advice on choosing a boiler, and am always open to suggestions on how I could plan this better.

What does it take to heat a 36'x48'x4" concrete pad? Im not terribly worried about it keeping the building at 70, but I would like to keep the floor in the 65-70 region. Then add hot air heat if necessary.

From what I understand, the water going into the concrete is not to exceed 100 degrees by much, though the baseboard hot water is to be fed 160ish if I understand right, so I will have some mixing to do, if I am going to be including the house loop.

What kind of maintenance is there on a coal boiler? I understand the concept of how they work, but what kind of regular maintenance is needed with them? How often do they need feeding and ash servicing? (Obviously thats typical, as the heat load affects it tremendously)

Sorry for the long first post, just trying to give as much information as I could.

Looking forward to your helpful insight.

Also
I am not currently planning on using it for DHW, though, those of you that burn all year for DHW, how much coal do you use in a summer month? What is summer maintenance like?


 
Pacowy
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Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 1:57 pm

Welcome to the forum, Mikeeg02.

Several forum members have experience with radiant systems and boilers in outbuildings, so I'll leave those subjects to them.

Coal supply and ash removal requirements depend heavily on the type of set-up you choose. Assuming you're considering a stoker boiler, some are fed via a hopper (normally 350 lb or less) while others use augers that can draw from whatever you want to use for a "feed bin". The frequency with which coal needs to be supplied depends on how many days' worth of use are available to the stoker in the hopper or bin. The same situation, in reverse, applies to the need to remove ash.

As an example, in our old house, we ran the stoker boiler year-round. In the summer, when it was only making DHW, it would go about 3 weeks before it needed feed and ash servicing. In the spring and fall, when there were regular calls for heat, that interval dropped to every 3-4 days. During the coldest days of the year, it was more like every 1-2 days.

Aside from feed and ash servicing, a common regular maintenance need is cleaning of accumulated fly ash on heat exchange surfaces and in flue pipes. At an absolute minimum you should plan on a thorough cleaning in the off-season and in the middle of the heating season. Depending upon the stoker you use, you may also need to clear "fines" from the air chamber under the burn grate. On the most common EFM stoker, and on some others, that's done by pulling a lever. On many/most/all(?) of the flat grate stokers, a little vacuuming is needed. Some stoker fans need periodic cleaning to remove accumulated dust, animal hair, etc., and most have periodic lubrication needs.

On "how to plan this better", my main question would be whether you've considered putting the boiler in the basement rather than the outbuilding. Heat "lost" by the boiler when it's in the house still tends to heat the house, and if anything goes wrong with the underground lines in the winter it would be the outbuilding, rather than the house, that would have to deal with the problem. Having the boiler in the house also makes it reasonable to consider supplying DHW directly from a coil in the boiler, simplifying and reducing the cost of DHW supply.

Mike

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 7:24 pm

Thanks for the info. The main reason I would like to have the boiler in the shop is because its main job will be to heat the shop. Supplementing the house would be a bonus. I intend on leaving the current Alaska stove in the basement as a supplemental/backup plan. DHW I plan on just using the electric tank. The house as it is today has 2-3 forms of heat as it is. 1) Primary is heat pump. 2) Alaska coal stove in basement 3) Heat strip 10k heat strip in the duct work. (Hope never to use it, I keep it disconnected from the thermostat unless I want it) So the boiler in the garage will be just another supplemental type of deal. Unless its proven to be just a huge waist of money.

My goal is to come up with my heating plan over winter, and buy someones used boiler in the spring or summer when prices are generally lower. I have been reading quite a bit about the EFM 520. And the axman anderson 130. Just seems to be a wealth of information here!

 
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vermontday
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Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520

Post by vermontday » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 7:46 pm

While I know everyone here likes their brand of boiler, I will make the argument that EFM is the Cadillac of coal boilers.

EFM's are safe, they use an underfed pot that cannot build explosive gases.

EFM's are powerful, with a great automatic turndown ratio, whether heating a house in subzero or hot water in the summer.

EFM's underfed pots have a better chance of burning biofuels should politics ever tax coal.

EFM's auger allows you to use a coal bin and it's low angle allows you to use skids if you have room. Coal is heavy, why lift coal when you don't have to?

EFM's are quiet, without the clanging fall back tube of some other designs.

EFM's are reliable, as evidenced by 50 yr old units selling for 1/2 the price of new.

And don't base the price of an EFM off of Ebay, you can get new ones for much less than that by shopping around or you can buy a refurbished unit. Also keep in mind that you get what you pay for. Spending $1 or 2K more is nothing over the years that this will be flawlessly meeting your heating needs. They are built like a tank! You won't find any plastic in an EFM!

Click on below blue link for more info;

EFM 520 Install With Skid/Bulk Bags Feed
Last edited by vermontday on Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Thanks for the link, looks like I have lots of reading to do! Nice pictures and all!

Thanks again!

 
Mikeeg02
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 8:07 pm

I did see where you said you didnt need to attend it for a month, how does that work with the Ashes? Or were you referring to the feed side only? How does the EFM deal with ashes? Standard ash tray in the bottom?

 
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vermontday
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Location: Bennington, VT
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520

Post by vermontday » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 8:28 pm

You can use a round standard bushel metal tub or if you want to go longer you can use a square tub.

We use round tubs. In the summer we can go over well over a week between ash changes.

Right now we are going 5 days. In the winter I have my daughter change it daily (she gets paid by the trip!), but most of the winter we could easily go a couple of days.

Keep in mind that ashes are light compared to coal.


 
oilman
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Post by oilman » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 8:41 pm

Remember that a radiant heatloss is lower than a standard high temp heatloss. In other words, the lower the heating temps, the less tendacy for the hot to cold syndrome. So, a slab system is the lowest temp. heat you can have.........you would have less heatloss than a 180 degree BB system or a 140 degree warm air for example.
If you use a heatloss program from one of the pex makers like Wirsbo for example, it's built in.

 
Mikeeg02
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Posts: 244
Joined: Sat. Mar. 09, 2013 7:28 am
Location: Milroy, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Pea

Post by Mikeeg02 » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 9:25 pm

Good information. I dislike the word heat loss. I think what your saying is less heat transfer, correct? (I know heatloss is the proper term) Basically, I believe your not to exceed 100* in concrete floors, meaning that the temperature differential is less then if you had a fan blowing through a radiator at 180*? Thats what you were saying right?

What I was thinking was keeping the floor at temperature, and then supplementing with a radiator and a fan as needed.

 
Pacowy
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Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 9:28 pm

vermontday wrote:You can use a round standard bushel metal tub or if you want to go longer you can use a square tub.
Or if you want to go really long you can let the ash fall into the base, then shovel it into a couple of tubs. :lol:

Mike

 
Pacowy
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Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Wed. Nov. 06, 2013 9:38 pm

vermontday wrote:While I know everyone here likes their brand of boiler, I will make the argument that EFM is the Cadillac of coal boilers.
Your reasoning is, of course,impeccable, but I suspect you may hear from forum member Townsend on this before too long... :lol:

Mike

 
dalmatiangirl61
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Post by dalmatiangirl61 » Thu. Nov. 07, 2013 3:54 am

vermontday wrote:While I know everyone here likes their brand of boiler, I will make the argument that EFM is the Cadillac of coal boilers.
If an EFM is all that, why has no one suggested I get one? If all I need to do is buy a new EFM, WTF am I doing jacking with old stokers?

 
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Rob R.
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Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Thu. Nov. 07, 2013 5:05 am

dalmatiangirl61 wrote:
vermontday wrote:While I know everyone here likes their brand of boiler, I will make the argument that EFM is the Cadillac of coal boilers.
If an EFM is all that, why has no one suggested I get one? If all I need to do is buy a new EFM, WTF am I doing jacking with old stokers?
Those old stokers will do a much better job with your local coal,

 
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331camaro
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker k6
Coal Size/Type: rice

Post by 331camaro » Thu. Nov. 07, 2013 5:37 am

check with your building inspector about building a small boiler room. you may want to look into building a small boiler house, totaly seperate from the shop. my inspector didnt care, he let me put mine right in the shop, just wanted 5/8 dry wall behind it. I heat my 30x40x12 shop for next to nothing. radiant floor heat is the way to go with a new build.

 
Pacowy
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Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Thu. Nov. 07, 2013 8:23 am

dalmatiangirl61 wrote:
vermontday wrote:While I know everyone here likes their brand of boiler, I will make the argument that EFM is the Cadillac of coal boilers.
If an EFM is all that, why has no one suggested I get one? If all I need to do is buy a new EFM, WTF am I doing jacking with old stokers?
EFM no longer makes stokers larger than the S-20 unit used in the 520 boiler and AF-150 furnace, and AFAIK has not made bigger stokers since at least 1986. I think Mark's Supply produces new components for the EFM 900, but even that unit is small relative to the load you have described.

Besides, you seem to like, and have skills for, jacking with old stokers. :lol:

Mike


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