Pumping Away

Pumping Away

PostBy: kstills On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:32 pm

How many of you have your circulators on the supply side of your stoker boilers?

Is this a viable location for the circulator when using coal boilers?
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:42 pm

Back in the day..... When the moon was young .... Circulator seals were not what they are today ... so the old dead guys put them on the return -> exposing them to less or fewer energy swings and heat related failures.

Drag your self out of the 19th century and just do it Right

but there is nothing drastically wrong with doing it Left -- or would that be correct
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: kstills On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:11 pm

Sting wrote:Back in the day..... When the moon was young .... Circulator seals were not what they are today ... so the old dead guys put them on the return -> exposing them to less or fewer energy swings and heat related failures.

Drag your self out of the 19th century and just do it Right

but there is nothing drastically wrong with doing it Left -- or would that be correct


I read that :lol:

However, I have also seen cautions on pumping on the supply side of a solid fuel boiler, which is what I'm trying to tease out in this thread.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line


Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: bksaun On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:26 pm

Im old fashioned, mine is on the return side.

Bk
bksaun
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid, Gentleman Janitor GJ-6RSU/ EFM 700
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 503
Coal Size/Type: Pea Stoker/Bit, Pea or Nut Anthracite
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer/ EFM-Gentleman Janitor
Stove/Furnace Model: 503 Insert/ 700/GJ-62

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm

Putting it on supply side helps get the air out of the system.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: bksaun On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:15 pm

Doesn't seem to have any air in it, I have 2 air scoops, one just above the boiler and one in the house farthest away from the boiler, been running 2 years no problems.

Bk
bksaun
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid, Gentleman Janitor GJ-6RSU/ EFM 700
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 503
Coal Size/Type: Pea Stoker/Bit, Pea or Nut Anthracite
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer/ EFM-Gentleman Janitor
Stove/Furnace Model: 503 Insert/ 700/GJ-62

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:22 pm

Pumping Away — From What?
by John Siegenthaler, P.E.
Not from the boiler, but from the point of no pressure change.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 6854,d.b2I
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:39 pm

:mad: :mad: :mad: Crap,....read the article,.....now I want to shut down and repipe! Eh, can wait until spring,...I think.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: kstills On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:47 pm

Carbon12 wrote::mad: :mad: :mad: Crap,....read the article,.....now I want to shut down and repipe! Eh, can wait until spring,...I think.


I feel your pain, however either Yanch or Berlin has cautioned about pumping away on a solid fuel boiler, so I'm hoping I can hear from them soon.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:34 pm

It was Yanche, but depending on how you have your pump(s) plumbed it wouldn't be the problem he had.

My pump flanges have the built-in valve and screw cap port, if/whenever air gets in and pump would run dry, simply remove the screw-cap and crack that port and air is expelled and you have water flow again immediately.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: Yanche On: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:42 pm

Yes, it was me that had to move my coal boiler circulator to the return side of the boiler.

Here's a in depth discussion of why. First, I fully agree with the "pumping away" principles as described by John Siegenthaler in the link posted by Sting. But, many boiler installations are not as simple as a single boiler and a single circulator connected to a radiation system that the "pumping away" examples use. That's true in my application. I have a oil boiler and a coal boiler piped into a primary secondary loop. From this loop water flows to my home via insulated underground pipe. In my home there are multiple zones, including an indirect hot water heater, all with individual circulators.

Coal boilers are unique, because heat continues to be produced even when there is no demand. How much heat is produced depends on the boiler design and the "keep fire alive" method. Ideally, this excess heat is not distributed, unless needed. One way to stop this flow is with one or more check valves. Often the check valve is an integral part of the circulator. I have both in my system. A further complication is if the unwanted heat distribution is blocked, it still must go somewhere. This could be a dump zone or an over-sized expansion tank.

All boilers have safety pressure relief valves. Indirectly this is what caused my problem. I had an over-fire condition which cause the safety pressure relief valve to release. The release also discharged a considerable volume of water. When the boiler cooled, the automatic fill value re-filled the boiler. But ... My circulator mounted on the top of the coal boiler has an integral flow check. When the pressure relief blew all water was removed from the circulator; both sides including the impeller side. Now when the automatic relief valve returned water to the boiler, it could not get to the impeller side of the circulator. There was a air pocket cause by the check valve. So, what's the solution? Move the circulator to the return side of the boiler. This way if the pressure relief valve blows there will still be water on both sides of the now low mounted circulator. When the automatic valve refills the boiler operation will resume.

After this problem. I did two things. I moved my coal boiler's circulator (with integral flow check) to the return side and increased the size of my expansion tank. The increased expansion tank size captures the expanding water volume due to any over-fire condition. This assures the pressure relief does not blow. I recommend this method over a dump zone. During very low demand and warm temperatures I routinely have a boiler water temperatures of 240 deg F. This hot water is stored in the boiler and is ready for use when demand occurs. If you design a system like this make sure all your boiler piping is rated for high temperatures.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: oliver power On: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:34 am

Yanche wrote:Yes, it was me that had to move my coal boiler circulator to the return side of the boiler.

Here's a in depth discussion of why. First, I fully agree with the "pumping away" principles as described by John Siegenthaler in the link posted by Sting. But, many boiler installations are not as simple as a single boiler and a single circulator connected to a radiation system that the "pumping away" examples use. That's true in my application. I have a oil boiler and a coal boiler piped into a primary secondary loop. From this loop water flows to my home via insulated underground pipe. In my home there are multiple zones, including an indirect hot water heater, all with individual circulators.

Coal boilers are unique, because heat continues to be produced even when there is no demand. How much heat is produced depends on the boiler design and the "keep fire alive" method. Ideally, this excess heat is not distributed, unless needed. One way to stop this flow is with one or more check valves. Often the check valve is an integral part of the circulator. I have both in my system. A further complication is if the unwanted heat distribution is blocked, it still must go somewhere. This could be a dump zone or an over-sized expansion tank.

All boilers have safety pressure relief valves. Indirectly this is what caused my problem. I had an over-fire condition which cause the safety pressure relief valve to release. The release also discharged a considerable volume of water. When the boiler cooled, the automatic fill value re-filled the boiler. But ... My circulator mounted on the top of the coal boiler has an integral flow check. When the pressure relief blew all water was removed from the circulator; both sides including the impeller side. Now when the automatic relief valve returned water to the boiler, it could not get to the impeller side of the circulator. There was a air pocket cause by the check valve. So, what's the solution? Move the circulator to the return side of the boiler. This way if the pressure relief valve blows there will still be water on both sides of the now low mounted circulator. When the automatic valve refills the boiler operation will resume.

After this problem. I did two things. I moved my coal boiler's circulator (with integral flow check) to the return side and increased the size of my expansion tank. The increased expansion tank size captures the expanding water volume due to any over-fire condition. This assures the pressure relief does not blow. I recommend this method over a dump zone. During very low demand and warm temperatures I routinely have a boiler water temperatures of 240 deg F. This hot water is stored in the boiler and is ready for use when demand occurs. If you design a system like this make sure all your boiler piping is rated for high temperatures.
Hi Yanche, Yes, I can see where you wouldn't want to dump any excess heat in your outdoors boiler house. My dump zone puts the heat in the basement.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:19 pm

Yanche wrote: The increased expansion tank size captures the expanding water volume due to any over-fire condition. This assures the pressure relief does not blow. I recommend this method over a dump zone. During very low demand and warm temperatures I routinely have a boiler water temperatures of 240 deg F. This hot water is stored in the boiler and is ready for use when demand occurs. If you design a system like this make sure all your boiler piping is rated for high temperatures.


I went with PEX for the secondary, so this method is out for me.

However, I appreciate the in depth explanation, which will help with my piping plans for the late summer next year.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: tsb On: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:37 pm

I have a very simple system. One circulator and threes zones regulated
with zone valves. The dump zone has it's own circulator. In this simple
system the location of the circulator is not important because it really doesn't
PUMP, it just circulates (moves) the water in the system.
tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: Pumping Away

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:43 pm

Water is not compressible, and what goes around comes around in equal measure. so I must admit to being confused by the entire pumping away vs. pumping too issue.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)