Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: Vampiro On: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:41 pm

Hi folks. I hear many an individual speak about freedom and liberty, how they cherish these rights, will fight for and, defend these natural rights and so on. Yet, many individuals whom say they support these rights go on to espouse policies and advocate for actions to be taken that are clearly antithetical to what is freedom and liberty.

Freedom and liberty are defined already. There is no getting around their definitions and the logical conclusion of these rights. That being said, here are the definitions of both freedom and liberty.

Freedom:

The quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : Free from slavery or restraint or from the power of another.

Liberty:

1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control

Anyone whom is forced to work for the benefit of another individual is not free, but is a slave. They do say that trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results equates to insanity. So throughout the many experiments that were governments and the politicians and vast bureaucracies within, the logical conclusion of government would equal insanity.

Yet continued on is the support of not only central governments, but the downright thievery that takes place through means of force and coercion. While we are defining things, let us define what theft is also.

Theft:
1 a : the act of stealing ; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

Last I've seen, taxation is not voluntary, and neither are many services. If one does not pay their taxes first letters will be sent, until ultimately property is forcibly taken and violence is used against the individual.

But hold on!!!, one might say. Taxation is necessary for a civilized society. So if we didn't have taxation, there would be individuals running around confiscating half of our incomes!..... That already happens through government, and the special interests that benefit from such theft. So if theft, and extortion are immoral, then how can such acts lead to a civilized moral society when they are uncivil and immoral at their inception?

Extortion:
the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats.

Taxation is extortion, with a different name.

But what about the common good? If theft were beneficial for an individuals own little economy, then we would all be thieves. So how can any measure of it be acceptable? Such acts that are forced upon others are antithetical to individual freedom and liberty. So if one wouldn't want anyone threatening their family with violence if they don't pay up every week, then how can anyone advocate a politician do it on their behalf?

So we must look at how it is these policies of theft, coercion, and extortion are continually espoused. If an individual were to go to another individuals home with the intent of taking the homeowners property, and giving the property to their family and friends...this thief will likely face consequences. It could be a neighbor, the dog, or an armed homeowner. So the deterrent is there and can lead to theft prevention.

When a politician engages in theft to benefit special interest individuals or corporations, they do not have to face the homeowner. Those whom advocate the politician to rob and steal on their behalf do not face any consequences either. To ensure their grasp on such power they rely on standing armies, the police, and whatever other means necessary, of which all means are clearly antithetical to freedom and liberty.

Lets take two individuals. One individual named Mary is a homeowner. The other individual Larry, approaches the homeowner and wishes to purchase the said home and the land it occupies. Larry breaks out two suitcases and says to Mary "here, take this money in exchange for your home". Mary replies "this is Monopoly money, I will not accept such nonsense, so kindly leave my land". Larry tells her, "well it is money, because I say it is and it is backed by me and a group of my friends". Mary still refuses.

One of Larry's friends happens to be a politician. This politician writes into law tha Monopoly money will be used for all transactions. Larry goes back to Mary and says "this is now backed by the full faith and credit of the government". Mary still refuses such nonsense, and only wished to receive gold or silver in exchange for the property. Larry then comes back with the politician and the police, stating if she doesn't accept payment in monopoly dollars, she will go to jail.

Some individuals are saying, well this Monopoly money defies logic, and someone would have to delude themselves into believing just because a politician said so, the Monopoly money is real money, and ignore the actions of free individuals in a market, and it's subsequent testing of commodity money through the market (hence the various forms of money through history, until gold and silver won out as a free individuals money.

This same scenario is what the dollar is, along with other fiat currency. It has no value, other that an unrealistic value that has to be forced upon individuals through legal tender laws and threats of violence. For those are the only ways it can survive. Legal tender laws, and forcing an exchange partner to accept a media, or medium of exchange against their will also are antithetical to freedom and liberty.

There is no getting around the aforementioned natural rights that are freedom, and liberty and their meanings. So do you really support freedom and Liberty?
Vampiro
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:53 pm

Most people have no idea what you are talking about and just want their free stuff.

Kevin
KLook
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:18 pm

KLook wrote:Most people have no idea what you are talking about and just want their free stuff.

Kevin



At least 47% anyway.
Flyer5
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:32 pm

It put the number quite a bit higher when you add in all of Mitt Romney's pals collecting corporate welfare.

The man who "saved" the Salt Lake City Olympics did so on the backs of the taxpayers.

R's and D's are two wings of the same evil bird.

I bet only 1% have any idea what freedom and liberty truly are.
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: grumpy On: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:41 pm

jpete wrote:It put the number quite a bit higher when you add in all of Mitt Romney's pals collecting corporate welfare.

The man who "saved" the Salt Lake City Olympics did so on the backs of the taxpayers.

R's and D's are two wings of the same evil bird.

I bet only 1% have any idea what freedom and liberty truly are.



Right, and the college kids were upset because martin luther king died in a car crash last week, really they did..

grumpy
 

Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:48 am

Lets see now the right to Freedom & Liberty, almost sounds like a trick question. Gee, one would have to be what? Un-American, unpatriotic some kind of welfare slug or whatever your trying to get at. I have to wonder if we somehow got these "RIGHTS" by everyone sitting on their collective asses & these "RIGHTS" just dropped down out of thin air without someone, somewhere at sometime paying for them? Allow me to think about this one for awhile. :oops: :cry:
samhill
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:00 am

What about the freedom to pillage and loot by the ruling class of the government? Hundreds of thousands in this class. Crony capitalists would add thousands more.

What about the freedom of not having to produce anything of value to others and still have basic needs supplied free by others? Millions in this class.

So freedom is relative and freedom for most would deny the freedoms above to others. And they control the vote and will soon add millions more.
franco b
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:17 am

Gee Franco, I thought all along that even if it did take a long while we as adults finally all got the right to vote. Must be one of those Freudian slip that you happen to mention (not directly) but off hand what I think is one of the biggest problems, freedom of relative ability, it seems to becoming more & more contagious. :roll:
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:22 am

samhill wrote:Gee Franco, I thought all along that even if it did take a long while we as adults finally all got the right to vote. Must be one of those Freudian slip that you happen to mention (not directly) but off hand what I think is one of the biggest problems, freedom of relative ability, it seems to becoming more & more contagious. :roll:

Trying as hard as i can but can't make out the point here. Or any sense at all.
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:37 am

Guess I was a little non-direct, I'm talking about the family business of politics, happens everywhere on all sides from Fed to Local, Lobby to business & yet we as voters prefer to listen to & follow others rather than doing our homework, guess maybe all Americans for the most part are self centered, complacent & lazy. Way too busy making Fiat money & wanting to keep it all while allowing others to do the dirty dangerous work of protecting their given (from somewhere)"Right" to do so. I have offered to (quite a few times) to accept any of that worthless currency that is always talked about, maybe because I have earned what little I have by hard work that I tend to not complain about the so called worthless dollar. If so worthless why do those with so much always want so much more? :?
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:20 pm

The "middle" has moved so far to the left that JFK would likely be considered too conservative to get elected as a Democrat today.

The concepts of freedom and liberty are all but lost to my generation, and are not even comprehensible (or desirable) to the younger adult generation of today. As I see it, only the Objectivists (who do not comprise a political party, but are more of a philosophical think tank, despised by both the Democrats and Republicans) and the libertarians (who do have a political party [the Libertarians, capital 'L'], and are also despised by both the Democrats and the Republicans), and the libertarian/anarchists (the real radicals for freedom) desire freedom and liberty today.

I'm convinced that if Thomas Jefferson was alive today he would be an Objectivist/libertarian/anarchist blend akin to Ron Paul. in his day Jefferson was highly popular. That Ron Paul can't garner more than a few percent of the vote in this day and age indicates to me that Jefferson himself would not be very popular if he was around today.

Income taxation is not representative of freedom.
Obamacare is not representative of freedom.
Endlessly beating up on small countries that don't play ball with us (always under false pretenses) is not representative of freedom.
Militarized police are not representative of freedom.
Political correctness and thought police are not representative of freedom.
Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are not representative of freedom.
The Federal Reserve and its paper money scam (with legal tender laws to force it down our throats) are not representative of freedom.
TSA, NSA, Homeland Security, NDAA, Patriot Act, etc... are not representative of freedom.
lsayre
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:39 pm

samhill wrote:Lets see now the right to Freedom & Liberty, almost sounds like a trick question. Gee, one would have to be what? Un-American, unpatriotic some kind of welfare slug or whatever your trying to get at. I have to wonder if we somehow got these "RIGHTS" by everyone sitting on their collective asses & these "RIGHTS" just dropped down out of thin air without someone, somewhere at sometime paying for them? Allow me to think about this one for awhile. :oops: :cry:


Despite the popular propaganda, freedom is in fact, "free". It comes with your mere existence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:09 pm

As much as I hate getting into a conversation with you Jpete, those words you quoted are simply those of man. Those men had hopes & dreams & a twisted view of their own words since very few if any considered "all men to be created equal" as many owned slaves & women had little in the way of "rights" in comparison. :cry:
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:22 pm

samhill wrote:As much as I hate getting into a conversation with you Jpete, those words you quoted are simply those of man. Those men had hopes & dreams & a twisted view of their own words since very few if any considered "all men to be created equal" as many owned slaves & women had little in the way of "rights" in comparison. :cry:


I'm confident that income taxation, Social Security, Obamacare, the NSA, Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, TSA, etc... will fix that, so no worries. We'll show those racist homophobic woman hating founders that we are far superior to them. Right?
lsayre
 
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Re: Freedom and Liberty, do you really support these rights?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:03 pm

samhill wrote:As much as I hate getting into a conversation with you Jpete, those words you quoted are simply those of man. Those men had hopes & dreams & a twisted view of their own words since very few if any considered "all men to be created equal" as many owned slaves & women had little in the way of "rights" in comparison. :cry:


So when we talk about soldiers dying for our freedom, it's all b*llsh!t right?
jpete
 
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