Secondary Air Distribution System

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:50 pm

Waste of time. Like trying to patent the table.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Lightning On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:26 pm

franco b wrote:Waste of time. Like trying to patent the table.

Unfortunately I think yer right. The things I've done are old ideas, brought to an appliance that the manufacturer didn't think was necessary.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:33 pm

Just about all the popular wood stove designs of the 1970s and 80s were ripped off by the Taiwanese companies with no successful effort that I know of to stop them.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

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Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: nortcan On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:52 pm

Thanks for the nice video.
But how did you do to coordinate the music with the flame's movements :lol:
Did closing the ash pan door change the results?
Keep on the good work, we really appreciate. :idea:
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Lightning On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:32 pm

Haha the music coordination was purely a coincidence. I noticed in places too the music lines up with the flame movements lol

When I closed the ash pan door, it settles down for the long burn. I see the usual pretty little blues that I normally would. I'm guessing the incoming secondary air is being used more efficiently coming out close to the coal bed. Where before it aimlessly came out high over the coal bed. Will I see a dramatic change in heat output and coal usage? I have to think it will be a slight change.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: carlherrnstein On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:09 pm

I am simple so I try to think of things as simply as possible.

My thought on how air would move into a unrestricted pipe in you steup is like this, the air in the pipe is the same pressure as the pressure outside of the combustion chamber, so when you drill holes into the pipes you have basicly drilled holes into the wall of the combustion chamber this would explain why all the flames are roughly the same size, but now that there are holes in the pipes the air pressure in the pipes is lower than outside the the furnace but, higher than in the combustion chamber.

I would only worry about warpage if you throttled the air flow down to the point that cooler room air can't get in cast enough to cool the tubes down.
carlherrnstein
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: combustioneer model 77B
Coal Size/Type: pea stoker/Ohio bituminous

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: dcrane On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:05 pm

michaelanthony wrote:All I want to say is, YOU ARE MY FRICKEN IDOL, and I hope you make millions... you don't have to patent it just "apply" for the patent! and then send the video to the manufacturer of you stove and those like it. BRILLIANT!


he absolutely can apply for patent... my fathers stoves all had secondary over fire air (in the 44 from ash area along the front)... then perfected better in the 404 (as William says heated secondary air is best), both patented designs. The trouble is... patents run out (copyrights/trademarks dont)....sometimes people confuse these. BUT... if lightning puts a patent on these "secondary over fire air tubes" if any company uses it over the next 10 years they would be at risk of lightnings attorney toothy
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:25 pm

dcrane wrote:both patented designs.

Yes the design, but change it just a little and the patent means nothing. Ask Chubby, and Jotul, and Vermont Castings and several others what their patents were worth.

An over fire air tube is not a new invention so all you can patent is that particular design.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Lightning On: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:27 pm

So I attempted to make some observations today with the secondary air system. At 10:30 this morning it was 8 hours since I shook and loaded, secondary air open about 25%. At that time, I opened the secondary air up to about 50%. Then at 11:00 I closed them down to about 15% and left it there. Below is the temp fluctuations I saw..

There is definitely a fine line between enough and too much. As seen in the temps, when I increased the secondary from 25% to 50% the furnace cooled, the pipe got warmer and the warm air duct cooled (by only 1 degree). Then when I decreased the secondary air from 50% to 15% the furnace got warmer, the pipe got cooler and the warm air duct got warmer (by 1 or 2 degrees)..

What's yer thoughts?
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Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Keepaeyeonit On: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:35 pm

Mr Lightning :D nice work but you need to keep track of your readings over a longer time span let say a few days or a week to get a better understanding of how the furnace reacts but I think 15 to 20% may be your sweet spot.Keepaeyeonit
Keepaeyeonit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 983 insert
Coal Size/Type: Mammoth nut
Other Heating: oil furnace,and a crappy heat pump

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Lightning On: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:12 pm

Keepaeyeonit wrote:Mr Lightning :D nice work but you need to keep track of your readings over a longer time span let say a few days or a week to get a better understanding of how the furnace reacts but I think 15 to 20% may be your sweet spot.Keepaeyeonit


Yes sir, my objective during the above observation was to see how the secondary air adjustment effected the temps in a short time span while all other variables were consistent.

I will also see how it does at consistent settings over the whole burn cycle. :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:55 pm

Some questions. How are you blocking off the secondarys ?

Do you have all the "before" temps for those same areas to compare what adding the secondary tubes has done for the stove , pipe, and duct ?

Or, maybe try blocking off the tubes (zero % open) occasionally to see what the average is without the tubes secondary added affect. Sorta like a base line ?

And, is the original secondary air inlet still in use during tall these tests, or do you have that blocked off when using the tubes ?
Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: dcrane On: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:48 am

franco b wrote:
dcrane wrote:both patented designs.

Yes the design, but change it just a little and the patent means nothing. Ask Chubby, and Jotul, and Vermont Castings and several others what their patents were worth.

An over fire air tube is not a new invention so all you can patent is that particular design.


Franco is correct
Last edited by dcrane on Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Lightning On: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:39 am

Sunny Boy wrote:How are you blocking off the secondarys ?

Until I install a better method, I'm covering the holes with foil tape in different proportions.

Sunny Boy wrote:Do you have all the "before" temps for those same areas to compare what adding the secondary tubes has done for the stove , pipe, and duct ?

No.. I'm just trying different amounts of secondary air to see its effect in an attempt to find the best amount.

Sunny Boy wrote:Or, maybe try blocking off the tubes (zero % open) occasionally to see what the average is without the tubes secondary added affect. Sorta like a base line ?

That's a good idea that I'm hesitant to pursue since I'm afraid of damaging the tubes if they don't have any air flowing thru them lol

Sunny Boy wrote:And, is the original secondary air inlet still in use during tall these tests, or do you have that blocked off when using the tubes ?

THe secondary air used to come in up high in the back of the furnace. I put the plug back in it. Its actually for a combustion blower for burning wood.
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Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Secondary Air Distribution System

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:06 am

Lightning wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:How are you blocking off the secondarys ?

Until I install a better method, I'm covering the holes with foil tape in different proportions.
Ok, yup, keeps it simple.

Sunny Boy wrote:Do you have all the "before" temps for those same areas to compare what adding the secondary tubes has done for the stove , pipe, and duct ?

No.. I'm just trying different amounts of secondary air to see its effect in an attempt to find the best amount.
At 15%, are you seeing any reduction in flame size near the back of the tubes, as if those rear-most feed holes are getting starved ? If not, you may be finding that there is a fixed size that would work best under all conditions without need of an adjustable tube opening. Then something as simple as an end cap with a hole drilled in it may be all the air inlet regulating that is needed ?

Sunny Boy wrote:Or, maybe try blocking off the tubes (zero % open) occasionally to see what the average is without the tubes secondary added affect. Sorta like a base line ?

That's a good idea that I'm hesitant to pursue since I'm afraid of damaging the tubes if they don't have any air flowing thru them lol
Good point. I was just curious from a before/after stand point.

Sunny Boy wrote:And, is the original secondary air inlet still in use during tall these tests, or do you have that blocked off when using the tubes ?

THe secondary air used to come in up high in the back of the furnace. I put the plug back in it. Its actually for a combustion blower for burning wood.

Ok, I don't remember if you mentioned that, so just wanted to be clear if it's just the two tubes feeding secondary air.
Really good experiment. Don't be surprised if you see others doing similar soon !

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

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