Secondary Air Distribution System

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franco b
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Post by franco b » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 1:50 pm

Waste of time. Like trying to patent the table.


 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 2:26 pm

franco b wrote:Waste of time. Like trying to patent the table.
Unfortunately I think yer right. The things I've done are old ideas, brought to an appliance that the manufacturer didn't think was necessary.

 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 2:33 pm

Just about all the popular wood stove designs of the 1970s and 80s were ripped off by the Taiwanese companies with no successful effort that I know of to stop them.

 
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Post by nortcan » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 5:52 pm

Thanks for the nice video.
But how did you do to coordinate the music with the flame's movements :lol:
Did closing the ash pan door change the results?
Keep on the good work, we really appreciate. :idea:

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 6:32 pm

Haha the music coordination was purely a coincidence. I noticed in places too the music lines up with the flame movements lol

When I closed the ash pan door, it settles down for the long burn. I see the usual pretty little blues that I normally would. I'm guessing the incoming secondary air is being used more efficiently coming out close to the coal bed. Where before it aimlessly came out high over the coal bed. Will I see a dramatic change in heat output and coal usage? I have to think it will be a slight change.

 
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carlherrnstein
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Post by carlherrnstein » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 7:09 pm

I am simple so I try to think of things as simply as possible.

My thought on how air would move into a unrestricted pipe in you steup is like this, the air in the pipe is the same pressure as the pressure outside of the combustion chamber, so when you drill holes into the pipes you have basicly drilled holes into the wall of the combustion chamber this would explain why all the flames are roughly the same size, but now that there are holes in the pipes the air pressure in the pipes is lower than outside the the furnace but, higher than in the combustion chamber.

I would only worry about warpage if you throttled the air flow down to the point that cooler room air can't get in cast enough to cool the tubes down.

 
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Post by dcrane » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 9:05 pm

michaelanthony wrote:All I want to say is, YOU ARE MY FRICKEN IDOL, and I hope you make millions... you don't have to patent it just "apply" for the patent! and then send the video to the manufacturer of you stove and those like it. BRILLIANT!
he absolutely can apply for patent... my fathers stoves all had secondary over fire air (in the 44 from ash area along the front)... then perfected better in the 404 (as William says heated secondary air is best), both patented designs. The trouble is... patents run out (copyrights/trademarks dont)....sometimes people confuse these. BUT... if lightning puts a patent on these "secondary over fire air tubes" if any company uses it over the next 10 years they would be at risk of lightnings attorney toothy


 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Wed. Nov. 27, 2013 9:25 pm

dcrane wrote:both patented designs.
Yes the design, but change it just a little and the patent means nothing. Ask Chubby, and Jotul, and Vermont Castings and several others what their patents were worth.

An over fire air tube is not a new invention so all you can patent is that particular design.

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Nov. 28, 2013 9:27 pm

So I attempted to make some observations today with the secondary air system. At 10:30 this morning it was 8 hours since I shook and loaded, secondary air open about 25%. At that time, I opened the secondary air up to about 50%. Then at 11:00 I closed them down to about 15% and left it there. Below is the temp fluctuations I saw..

There is definitely a fine line between enough and too much. As seen in the temps, when I increased the secondary from 25% to 50% the furnace cooled, the pipe got warmer and the warm air duct cooled (by only 1 degree). Then when I decreased the secondary air from 50% to 15% the furnace got warmer, the pipe got cooler and the warm air duct got warmer (by 1 or 2 degrees)..

What's yer thoughts?

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Keepaeyeonit
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Post by Keepaeyeonit » Thu. Nov. 28, 2013 9:35 pm

Mr Lightning :D nice work but you need to keep track of your readings over a longer time span let say a few days or a week to get a better understanding of how the furnace reacts but I think 15 to 20% may be your sweet spot.Keepaeyeonit

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Nov. 28, 2013 10:12 pm

Keepaeyeonit wrote:Mr Lightning :D nice work but you need to keep track of your readings over a longer time span let say a few days or a week to get a better understanding of how the furnace reacts but I think 15 to 20% may be your sweet spot.Keepaeyeonit
Yes sir, my objective during the above observation was to see how the secondary air adjustment effected the temps in a short time span while all other variables were consistent.

I will also see how it does at consistent settings over the whole burn cycle. :D

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Nov. 28, 2013 10:55 pm

Some questions. How are you blocking off the secondarys ?

Do you have all the "before" temps for those same areas to compare what adding the secondary tubes has done for the stove , pipe, and duct ?

Or, maybe try blocking off the tubes (zero % open) occasionally to see what the average is without the tubes secondary added affect. Sorta like a base line ?

And, is the original secondary air inlet still in use during tall these tests, or do you have that blocked off when using the tubes ?
Paul

 
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Post by dcrane » Fri. Nov. 29, 2013 3:48 am

franco b wrote:
dcrane wrote:both patented designs.
Yes the design, but change it just a little and the patent means nothing. Ask Chubby, and Jotul, and Vermont Castings and several others what their patents were worth.

An over fire air tube is not a new invention so all you can patent is that particular design.
Franco is correct
Last edited by dcrane on Fri. Nov. 29, 2013 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Nov. 29, 2013 6:39 am

Sunny Boy wrote:How are you blocking off the secondarys ?
Until I install a better method, I'm covering the holes with foil tape in different proportions.
Sunny Boy wrote:Do you have all the "before" temps for those same areas to compare what adding the secondary tubes has done for the stove , pipe, and duct ?
No.. I'm just trying different amounts of secondary air to see its effect in an attempt to find the best amount.
Sunny Boy wrote:Or, maybe try blocking off the tubes (zero % open) occasionally to see what the average is without the tubes secondary added affect. Sorta like a base line ?
That's a good idea that I'm hesitant to pursue since I'm afraid of damaging the tubes if they don't have any air flowing thru them lol
Sunny Boy wrote:And, is the original secondary air inlet still in use during tall these tests, or do you have that blocked off when using the tubes ?
THe secondary air used to come in up high in the back of the furnace. I put the plug back in it. Its actually for a combustion blower for burning wood.

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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Fri. Nov. 29, 2013 8:06 am

Lightning wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:How are you blocking off the secondarys ?
Until I install a better method, I'm covering the holes with foil tape in different proportions.
Ok, yup, keeps it simple.
Sunny Boy wrote:Do you have all the "before" temps for those same areas to compare what adding the secondary tubes has done for the stove , pipe, and duct ?
No.. I'm just trying different amounts of secondary air to see its effect in an attempt to find the best amount.
At 15%, are you seeing any reduction in flame size near the back of the tubes, as if those rear-most feed holes are getting starved ? If not, you may be finding that there is a fixed size that would work best under all conditions without need of an adjustable tube opening. Then something as simple as an end cap with a hole drilled in it may be all the air inlet regulating that is needed ?
Sunny Boy wrote:Or, maybe try blocking off the tubes (zero % open) occasionally to see what the average is without the tubes secondary added affect. Sorta like a base line ?
That's a good idea that I'm hesitant to pursue since I'm afraid of damaging the tubes if they don't have any air flowing thru them lol
Good point. I was just curious from a before/after stand point.
Sunny Boy wrote:And, is the original secondary air inlet still in use during tall these tests, or do you have that blocked off when using the tubes ?
THe secondary air used to come in up high in the back of the furnace. I put the plug back in it. Its actually for a combustion blower for burning wood.
Ok, I don't remember if you mentioned that, so just wanted to be clear if it's just the two tubes feeding secondary air.
Really good experiment. Don't be surprised if you see others doing similar soon !

Paul


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