worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:01 pm

dlj wrote:VigII - That's a great stove you have there! I always wondered which VC I could have used here, the Vigilant or the Defiant. Obviously the Resolute is too small for my house. Maybe we should do a winter stove swap some winter. I could put your stove in my house for a winter and you could put my stove in your house for a winter. That might be really an interesting experiment. Now, of course, we are going to have to write a solid contact stating that my Glenwood is mine and has to be returned after that test winter.. ;)

Of course, you probably feel the same the other way ... :D

dj


dj, I'd have to have the wife sign the contract if I would expect to live thru the experiment! :lol:

Truth is, I've long seen the value of a long flame path stove before I bought the Defiant wood burner and then the Vigilant. It's no secrete if you give it a little thought and let common sense into the picture. I was unaware of the antique baseburners and didn't know about the great baseburners of the past but I wasn't surprised to learn they existed. I've learned a lot from William and the "house" baseburner experts. Thank you very much!
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: coalcracker On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:06 pm

wow, this is some great information. Anyone burning wood or coal for heat, should read this- really good stuff here. The last part stating "give the chimney some heat" also relates to the topic of flue pipe dampers, or the lack of them.

http://woodheat.org/locating-chimney.html
Last edited by Richard S. on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Removed copyrighted text.... again you may reference articles but don;t repost them in their entirety.
coalcracker
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Standard sealed hot water boiler, hand fed
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark I Magnafire
Baseburners & Antiques: Lehigh Oak 18, Washington potbelly, Sears Roebuck parlor cabinet, PIttston 6 lid cook stove, vintage combo gas/coal cook stove 4 lid
Coal Size/Type: nut
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark I Magnafire

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: coalcracker On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:09 pm

Now, I'll say it one more time, a modern stove with an internal baffle and fan, with no flue damper of any type, burning coal, with a long vertical run of modern double wall insulated chimney pipe inside the home, will run rings around any antique baseburner, connected to an outside chimney.

No contest.
coalcracker
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Standard sealed hot water boiler, hand fed
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark I Magnafire
Baseburners & Antiques: Lehigh Oak 18, Washington potbelly, Sears Roebuck parlor cabinet, PIttston 6 lid cook stove, vintage combo gas/coal cook stove 4 lid
Coal Size/Type: nut
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark I Magnafire

Visit Hitzer Stoves

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:13 pm

You are quite wrong about how you calculate the radiant surface in a base burner. My Crawford 40 has even more radiant area than my Glenwood does. It has about 35 square feet of radiant area. You don't just count the pipe, you count every part that directly radiates heat. The barrel radiates heat, to get that you calculate the area of a cylinder. The back pipe radiates heat, that's another cylinder. The base on all four sides AND the bottom radiates heat. You then calculate the area of the rear base heating tubes as a cylinder if the stove has then like my Glenwood. You add all of that up and you get the radiant area of the stove.
And you get all of that superior design in a space 2'X 2'.
That's one of the many aspects of a base heater that is far, far superior to your little box stove. Comparing the Harmon to a Crawford, Andes or a Glenwood etc. is like comparing an ox cart with wooden wheels to a Ferrari.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:15 pm

cc, have you ever in fact installed & operated a base burner in different climatic situations and done any comparative studies on your own?
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:00 pm

Glad it's worked out for you, but lets be fair.

Apples to oranges. Your house layout is not standard (except in some northern European countries). For others to equal that set up, blows your economy comparison so far out of the water, . . . it'll be bone dry by the time it lands. :D

And, I'm not sure where your getting your 17, and 27 feet internal flue length claims from, but that's physically impossible for any base burner I've ever seen. BTW, cherry picking examples and using exaggerations to bolster a point only makes that point look that much more flawed.

Plus, have you added the cost of electricity needed, to your yearly heating costs ? I could up my heat gain by simply putting a small fan on the floor behind the stove. I know people who do exactly that with these old stoves.

And sure, I could put my hand on double walled pipe near the stove too. That's why codes require it in many installations. However, it doesn't make a stove more efficient. What are your actual flue gas temps inside that double walled pipe compared to the flue gas temps at the same distance from a baseburner? And for sake of argument, I'll throw my kitchen range into the baseburner category because it uses the same technology, from the same time period, made by the same people as the base burners. I can put my hand on the single wall pipe 3 feet above the stove top. The stove took so much heat out (without the need of additional electric devices), to the point that a double walled pipe isn't needed.

Long indoor pipe runs are nothing new. Look at old photos from the mid to late 19th century. Many times the stove pipe ran on a very shallow up-slope the length of a rooms, or churches, or public buildings.

And, what kind of temps do you get when the power's out ? Alot of north country places have these non-electric stoves because losing power during the coldest months is not a case of "if", but "when". I specifically looked for and got non-electric stoves because I didn't care for the times that I've been here without power. One was three days with no water because the pipes froze and it was 20 degrees in my kitchen and the only bit of heat I had was heating up pots of water on my gas kitchen stove.

If you look at houses built before 1900, most chimneys were centrally located. Many were two, three and four sided fireplaces that fed into a large central brick chimney that used all that brick as "thermal mass". My house was built in 1866. The main chimney which originally had a coal furnace hooked to it is in the center of the house. The large fireplace was the original kitchen cook fire place. Even though it was changed into a "sitting room" (living room) in 1892, it still has the swing-out wrought iron cooking pot crane. At four feet wide and thee feet high I can't feed wood into it fast enough ! The kitchen range was and now again, is plumbed into the original kitchen stove outside brick chimney on the rear of the house. Unlined, very tall, it has terrific draft !!!!!

Since I started using a mano gauge a couple of weeks ago, I've been charting the times and temps to find the "sweet spot" for damper settings. I'm using a hand-held IR gun which is much more accurate for reading actual surface temps, not just doing guesstimates of what it's doing.

Damped down last night at 8 pm, with the ash door primary =.045 inch openings, no secondary air (other than leaks), and the MPD fully closed. When I came down this morning at 7:10 am, the two top plates over the fire box read, 647 F and 642 F degrees. The single-walled stack, 36 inches above the stove, read 106 F, The right hand end of the water tank, one of the last places the flue gases get to, was 126 F. My new Dwyer model 25 manometer was reading .01. The pictures below are of this morning's coal bed after 11 hours and 10 minutes showing it's still up to the top of the firebox with at least another hour or more of coal before needed to be refueled with more coal.

BTW, so far, except for the electric fan, you haven't mention anything new that these old stoves didn't have. :D

And no, you don't have to spend $8000.00 for a high efficiency old coal stove. You can get baseburners, or parlor stoves with preheated primary air inlets and back pipes for less than that. You can get 2-3 restored Glenwood Modern Oaks with back pipes that are fairly close to being as efficient as the best baseburners for that $8000.00. And, I can buy restored kitchen ranges for less than half that.

Now, tell me again about the 6 pots worth of large meal you cooked and baked all at the same time on your stove, during a power outage, . . . while still efficiently heating your house, . . . plus, making over 4 gallons of hot water to wash the dishes with afterwards. All with the same amount of coal ? :D

Paul
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Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:09 pm

wsherrick wrote:You are quite wrong about how you calculate the radiant surface in a base burner. My Crawford 40 has even more radiant area than my Glenwood does. It has about 35 square feet of radiant area. You don't just count the pipe, you count every part that directly radiates heat. The barrel radiates heat, to get that you calculate the area of a cylinder. The back pipe radiates heat, that's another cylinder. The base on all four sides AND the bottom radiates heat. You then calculate the area of the rear base heating tubes as a cylinder if the stove has then like my Glenwood. You add all of that up and you get the radiant area of the stove.
And you get all of that superior design in a space 2'X 2'.
That's one of the many aspects of a base heater that is far, far superior to your little box stove. Comparing the Harmon to a Crawford, Andes or a Glenwood etc. is like comparing an ox cart with wooden wheels to a Ferrari.


And I'll add that my smaller-than-standard sized kitchen range, has almost 40 square feet of surface heat radiating area. And, that's not counting the back splash bolted to the top. A lot more than any modern free-standing stove I've seen. The more common standard size kitchen ranges have a few square feet more, with a bigger fire box that should allow them to run even longer than mine.

These old stoves give up nothing to the new ones in radiating surface area ! ;)

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: ONEDOLLAR On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:29 pm

CC

You cannot compare today's modern stove to the BB's of yesteryear. No matter how ones chimney is located.

I have both types and use both.. My "modern" hand fed is so new it isn't even for sale yet. While the 2014 Prototype Chubby is a fantastic stove, no doubt about it, and I rank it up there with any other current manufactured modern coal stove. However the Crawford BB is in a league all its own. And I consider it to be a second tier BB when compared to the Glenwoods. (Some may disagree with me on that but that is my feeling.)

The way a BB works is true marvel to see and feel. I am shocked at how much heat it produces and the extraordinary burn times with such a small amount of coal. While I can get an easy 18 hours on 30 pounds of coal with the "Proto Chubby" the Crawford will go 24 to 36 on less than 20. Both like to cruise at 450f but can easily handled 600f + if needed. So I burn around 1/3 less coal, get the same temps and at least a 1/3 longer burn with the BB. That is a huge difference. And the numbers would and will be even better for the BB once the guys down at the Antique Stove Hospital work their magic on her. (Assuming they call me back)

You simply cannot compare the two different types. The proof is in the pudding. BTW.. I paid a whooping $375 for my Crawford and it was intact and useable when I brought her home.

It is sad that these BB are no longer being made but I have a good feeling that it won't be too long before someone tries it again.
Last edited by ONEDOLLAR on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ONEDOLLAR
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 2014 Chubby Prototype
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford #2 Base Heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: coalcracker On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:56 pm

If the baseburners' claim to fame, is simply running an extra 10' or 12' additional smoke channel passageway inside the stove, what's so mystical or amazing about that ? A chimp can do that, just add 12' of stovepipe on the outside of the stove, running up through the house vertically, or across the room.

the way the passageways are configured in a baseburner, is like a large bent "U" shape anyway. A single long pipe with a few gentle bends would draft better and radiate the heat into the middle of the room.

We have a member here who has done it in his basement, and once he gets a cap on the chimney, and gets it drafting consistently, I'd wager it will have as much radiating area and efficiency as any expensive baseburner ever has.

there's more than one way to skin a cat, instead of throwing piles of money at it. I like rare, exotic, expensive, collectible stuff as much as the anyone- but not if I can duplicate it with about $50 worth of chimney pipe, available at any hardware store.

i.e. where's the beef ?
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coalcracker
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Standard sealed hot water boiler, hand fed
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark I Magnafire
Baseburners & Antiques: Lehigh Oak 18, Washington potbelly, Sears Roebuck parlor cabinet, PIttston 6 lid cook stove, vintage combo gas/coal cook stove 4 lid
Coal Size/Type: nut
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark I Magnafire

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:08 pm

coalcracker wrote: just add 12' of stovepipe on the outside of the stove, running up through the house vertically, or across the room.


Actually with your setup not much of an advantage, one of the best insulators on earth is trapped air, e.g double walled pipe.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:28 pm

The base burner has you whipped again. Many base burners and top end Oak Stoves had what was called a double heating option. Not only did they provide high combustion efficiency, high radiant efficiency, they had built in plenums that also provided hot air as well. You could allow this extra hot air to enter into the same room or you could pipe it upstairs. Show me the Harmon that has that built into it.
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wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: dlj On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:50 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:dj, I'd have to have the wife sign the contract if I would expect to live thru the experiment! :lol:

Truth is, I've long seen the value of a long flame path stove before I bought the Defiant wood burner and then the Vigilant. It's no secrete if you give it a little thought and let common sense into the picture. I was unaware of the antique baseburners and didn't know about the great baseburners of the past but I wasn't surprised to learn they existed. I've learned a lot from William and the "house" baseburner experts. Thank you very much!


I know what you mean about getting the wife to sign, I'd have to have both daughters and my wife to sign that one or I would be hung! We might have to just buy a second baseburner and VC unit and have them make the rounds of various folk that may like to try them out. :shock:

The long smoke path has been used many ways over the years in heating. There's an old ceramic wood stove where you make a small fire, it heats up a large ceramic mass, that keeps the house warm a long time. That may well date back to Roman times. I can't remember what they are called. Back in the 70's when I was very interested in all the alternative energy sources I recall running across that one. I used to work with a contractor that was very knowledgeable about all kinds of alternative living spaces. Built partially underground houses, houses based solely on passive renewable energy sources and lots more. It was a fun time, we learned and studied a lot about all the various ways to build all kinds of systems. We had a stone mason that knew all the details of how to build the modified Rumford designed fireplaces - a fireplace design that is actually efficient! No where near as efficient as a stove, but still, an efficient fireplace. It's hard to beat sitting and watching a nice open fire going in a fireplace. Have to say I kind of miss it, but I just can't have both my stove and a fireplace. No room... Plus then I also have to have a store of wood... naw, not going to happen... maybe in my next house....

dj
dlj
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Castings Resolute
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Baseheater #6
Coal Size/Type: Stove coal
Other Heating: Oil Furnace, electric space heaters

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: JohnB On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:01 pm

coalcracker wrote:In the old days, the chimney went through the center of the house- for that specific reason.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/se ... se/1260626


I live in a 1750 center chimney colonial & I can tell you that the chimney was only radiating heat into the attic in the days before attic insulation. The chimney was in the center of the house so they could add fireplaces around it on both floors. The main chimney trunk was fully enclosed by plank walls covered with lathe & plaster. Any heat coming off the chimney went straight up. Even the fireplace brick face was covered with wood paneling hence the timbers set into the brick work as nailers.

I will agree that I definitely like having a blower on my Hitzer. Didn't need it with my woodstove as I ran that stove at much higher temps.
JohnB
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Hitzer 50-93

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: dlj On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:19 pm

coalcracker wrote:Now, I'll say it one more time, a modern stove with an internal baffle and fan, with no flue damper of any type, burning coal, with a long vertical run of modern double wall insulated chimney pipe inside the home, will run rings around any antique baseburner, connected to an outside chimney.

No contest.


Coalcracker,

The long vertical run of modern double wall insulated chimney pipe keeps all the heat inside the chimney - as it is designed to do. That chimney design is specifically designed to NOT loose any heat from the chimney. You don't gain any heat inside your living space using that chimney. Using that logic in your above proclamation indicates, in fact, you don't have a clue about the basics of these systems.

You apparently have a system that works for you. I'm happy for you. I hope it runs a long time. Your functioning system does not mean you have THE answer to all the installations that may exist.

There are excellent modern stoves. There are crappy modern stoves. There are excellent antique stoves. There are crappy antique stoves. It actually is not a contest. The best of both age groups will work very well - it is the specific installation in the specific house/building that works or doesn't. There are many different stoves, installations, and needs across the many folk that visit this site. None of us have "THE ANSWER" to all of them. Each has their own specific constraints and needs.

dj
dlj
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Castings Resolute
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Baseheater #6
Coal Size/Type: Stove coal
Other Heating: Oil Furnace, electric space heaters

Re: worthwhile alternative to antique baseburner coal stoves

PostBy: mmcoal On: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:46 pm

I guess I need to get rid of my "evil" outside chimney that was just pulling between -.05 and -.1 the other day on the manometer in 50 degree weather :roll: . I have seen back drafts occur on an interior chimney(center of house) also. The draft of a chimney depends on many factors and not JUST whether it's interior or exterior. If I actually had the option and it wouldn't have required extensive reconstruction of parts of my house I would have done a double flue chimney up through the center and had my coal stove on one side of the chimney and a masonry heater on the other.
mmcoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: nut

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