Looking to install a boiler

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:25 am

anthony7812 wrote:Both agreed that if a main circ were to be used i would be dead in water if it failed until new pump is installed. Dont want that with no other "main" heat source.


The same is true for the stoker motor, aquastat, zone control relays, and probably something else I am forgetting. Blower motor on a furnace is the same way, if it fails you will be cold. I don't think the system would be any less reliable with one circulator and zone valves vs. separate circulators for each zone. Also consider how much electric it will use. Zone valves and an ECM circulator like a Grundfos Alpha is a sweet setup.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: oliver power On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:19 am

Rob R. wrote:
anthony7812 wrote:Both agreed that if a main circ were to be used i would be dead in water if it failed until new pump is installed. Dont want that with no other "main" heat source.


The same is true for the stoker motor, aquastat, zone control relays, and probably something else I am forgetting. Blower motor on a furnace is the same way, if it fails you will be cold. I don't think the system would be any less reliable with one circulator and zone valves vs. separate circulators for each zone. Also consider how much electric it will use. Zone valves and an ECM circulator like a Grundfos Alpha is a sweet setup.
As Rob R. says.......... My system has a total of 6 circulator pumps. My uncle's system has 1 circulator, and I think 4 zone valves. I don't see where my system heats any better than his. Just different ways of doing it. My system is called a "Primary / secondary". His system is called a "Parallel" system. So, what kind of system are you going to install? Series, Parallel, Reverse Parallel, or Primary / Secondary. If I remember correctly, the secondary part of a Primary / Secondary system can be plumbed in Series, or Parallel. I'm getting a little rusty since my research / studying of which hydronic system I wanted. I studied off & on for 4 years before getting serious about doing this project. Time was, and still is my big factor. That's why I had a HVAC friend give me a hand. Between myself, HVAC friend, and hydronic members on this site, the whole project went very smooth. Oliver
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: anthony7812 On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:01 pm

I will be totally honest, Thad tried to explain the loop setup he would like to use but I dont have a damn clue. Me and this guy have been best friends since prolly kindegarten, so I trust his judgement as to what will benefit me the most. I will ask, I would like to fully understand system myself, then I will make sure to get back to you folks for thoughts.
anthony7812
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VanWert VA 400
Coal Size/Type: Buck/Anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:24 pm

Keep It Sensibly Simple
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:35 pm

There is really no benefit to piping a coal boiler in a primary/secondary arrangement if all of the radiation requires the same temperature water and it isn't a high mass system. Like I said, zone valves and a variable speed circulator can make for a very energy efficient, quiet, and simple system.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:41 pm

Or as an alternative to a variable speed circulator you can go old school and install a "differential pressure bypass valve" leg which opens a lot to bypass flow directly back to the boiler when only one zone valve is open to flow, and then progressively closes as additional zone valves become open to flow. That's how I set up my system. 4 zones with zone valves, a differential pressure bypass valve, and a single circulator.
Last edited by lsayre on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:43 pm

Good point Larry, that also works very well...but you miss the energy savings of the variable speed unit. (but it still uses a lot less than zoning with circulators).
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Rob R. wrote:Good point Larry, that also works very well...but you miss the energy savings of the variable speed unit. (but it still uses a lot less than zoning with circulators).


Agreed! But the variable speed circulators come at a cost, and you still save over having multiple individual pumps running. It doesn't take much current to open a zone valve. That said, if I was to do it again I would go with a variable speed computer monitored circulator that adjusts itself automatically to the conditions at hand. Grundfos makes a nice one (the Alpha) that has been around for awhile, and Taco now has their Bumble Bee circulator to compete with it. To change my system only requires closing the ball valve on the differential pressure loop and installing the new circulator. Or perhaps it wouldn't even be necessary to close the ball valve on the differential pressure loop?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:59 pm

The Grundfos Alpha is the only one I have seen in action. It has come down a lot in cost since it was introduced...$158 right now.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:04 pm

Introducing the Taco Bumble Bee: https://www.taco-hvac.com/en/products/p ... tegory=405

For the end user who has to pay for it, competition is a wonderful thing.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: oliver power On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:26 pm

Rob R. wrote:There is really no benefit to piping a coal boiler in a primary/secondary arrangement if all of the radiation requires the same temperature water and it isn't a high mass system. Like I said, zone valves and a variable speed circulator can make for a very energy efficient, quiet, and simple system.
I agree Rob R.. All my radiation does require the same water temperature. If I had to do "THIS" house over, I'd go with one circulator, and zone valves. That being said; I'm very happy with my Primary / secondary system. The performance is excellent. However, I now see that I spent money foolishly on circulator pumps I didn't need. Not to mention the little check valve rattle in each circulator.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:42 am

anthony7812 wrote:So my Hvac friend came over and he drew me up a map of layout and did a heat calc and etc etc etc. So here are the preliminaries, 5 zones all with individual circ pumps. Both agreed that if a main circ were to be used i would be dead in water if it failed until new pump is installed. Dont want that with no other "main" heat source. Me and Thad(Hvac Friend) disagree on DHW install. I want to just make a small cold inlet loop into my electric water heater(three ball valves and 2 new T's) he wants to install a circ and a expansion tank and keep the entire tank up to temp. I dont see that added cost being a benefit, how often would my electric kick on to maintain? Not often with 3 women in my house!!! Basement... semi heated. I'll explain, I have a bathroom in basement thats MINE. No ladies crap just my shower a throne and a sink/vanity. I want that heated. We talked it over and decided the best route for that is make that bath its own zone and put a 6ft section or longer of cast iron radiator next to my window and (soon to be) basement door in the open section of basement. I'm thinking this would be a perfect designated dump zone, making the castiron be the last element before return. That bath is maybe 8x6 in a 27x50ish basement, Im sure that section will be an awesome dump zone. I will have a small small heat demand but will be able to drop alot of temp if needed. Like I stated this is preliminary, so thoughts suggestions welcome.



I agree just feed the DWH with water from the coil. Keep it simple. You may still need an expansion tank though for local zoning. Not sure and really wouldn't hurt. The only drawback I could see is if you have city water with high pressure. As far as a dump zone just make it any of the upstairs zones. If the boiler is properly set up you will rarely need it, unless you are talking a hand feed boiler then that will be needing more planning. The basement bath just install a strip of baseboard like you stated and use a programmable T-Stat.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: anthony7812 On: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:41 am

Flyer5 wrote:
I agree just feed the DWH with water from the coil. Keep it simple. You may still need an expansion tank though for local zoning. Not sure and really wouldn't hurt..


What do you mean by local zoning?

I agree I shouldnt need to utilize a dump zone if properly set up. I dont know how much momma would like on a 75 degree night a radiator throwin off heat.
anthony7812
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VanWert VA 400
Coal Size/Type: Buck/Anthracite

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:45 am

anthony7812 wrote:
Flyer5 wrote:
I agree just feed the DWH with water from the coil. Keep it simple. You may still need an expansion tank though for local zoning. Not sure and really wouldn't hurt..


What do you mean by local zoning?

I agree I shouldnt need to utilize a dump zone if properly set up. I dont know how much momma would like on a 75 degree night a radiator throwin off heat.



Local code.

The dump zone for a stoker does not need to be large or complicated. So I guess it doesn't really matter which zone is used. I just figured a large zone would better absorb excess heat with little change vs a small bathroom.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Looking to install a boiler

PostBy: anthony7812 On: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:01 am

the bathroom zone will also be a part of my basement heating...I may have not fully explained this one. So the bathroom in the basement will be on its own zone. The return side of that zone im goin to route into a large cast iron radiator outside that bathroom in the basement. It will help put a small amount of heat in the basement and dry out the kids gloves :D I was thinking with the large "volume" of water that those things use would make a great heat dump.
anthony7812
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VanWert VA 400
Coal Size/Type: Buck/Anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite