Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: titleist1 On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:19 pm

not sure about that McG.... the way i read it the stove & flue temp is the same as it ever was its just the room temp that is lower. but maybe i'm not understanding correctly.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: BPatrick On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:24 pm

Interesting...I'm curious to see how this thread gets resolved. I'd think that finishing it off would have added to the rooms ability to warm faster.
BPatrick
 
Baseburners & Antiques: 2 Crawford 40 Baseheaters
Coal Size/Type: Stove Coal
Other Heating: Herald Oak No. 18

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: Lightning On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:29 pm

waldo lemieux wrote:now you have a radiant mass in contact with a cold surface (insulation and cold air trapped in the ins.) and that cold will wick heat from that greater mass essentially conducting heat out of the building

There's two things wrong with this. Do you know anyone that has stripped sheet rock out so their house so it would be warmer? And, if insulation had a "wicking" tendency, who would use it? The stagnate air trapped in the insulation is what makes it work.

You ever press your hand up against insulation??
Let me know if it gets warm... :lol:
Cuz it certainly does for me.
The warmth that's felt was originally produced by your hand and then reflected back. :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

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Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:00 pm

Sheetrock over insulation is not the problem, . . . or every insulated house would have the same problem and we'd all be ripping the insulation out.

And, while it's not as high as insulation, 1/2 inch thick sheetrock has the same "R" value as 3/8 plywood. For those who don't know, the R value of a material is it's resistance to transferring heat.

Easy way to think of it. If it was cold weather, would you be warmer inside a sheetrock box , or dressed the same outside that box exposed to the weather ?

I think that by better sealing that area, your now pulling air from a colder place. Try lighting a piece of cotton string. Blow the flame out and let it smolder. Stand in different areas and hold the string near the floor, then near the ceiling. Move slowly so you don't impact the air currents anymore than necessary. Watch how the smoke moves and see if you can detect where the air is moving from and to.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
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Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: JohnnyV On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:10 pm

Well, the insulation I used was a foil insulation. It is a 1/4 inch thick of foam with foil on both sides. Once sealed with the reflective tape it states an R value of 14.5. It did well by itself. Really reflected the heat well in the winter and helped keep it cooler in here in the summer.

As far as the pipe is concerned, Don't I want a hot pipe up to the baro, then a cooler pipe after the baro? That to me sounds like it is doing its job and keeping the heat from going up the flue. For 3 years that is how it pretty much has been. Occasionally the pipe after the baro is hot, but not often.

I have a vent behind the stove that is closed when the temp gets below 30. The reason for this is because there is a draft coming up from the basement area towards the stove and from the other part of the house. It isn't that bad of a draft temperature wise but you can definitely feel the air moving. The pellet stove at the other end of the house is close enough to the steps that it gets the draft coming down the steps. I don't see where these would be competing for air, but at this point I can try cracking a window by the pellet stove. The house has a basement under it and I have a register in the floor at the bottom of the steps and one in the kitchen and bedroom so to take the cooler air down to the basement. I added the one at the bottom of the stairs to alleviate some of the colder air that was coming down, the others were there. At one point many years ago there was a coal stove/furnace in the basement. If I had to do it over again, I would have bought a larger stove and put it in the basement, but at the time, well that is another story.

The stove itself is burning great. Nice bright red coals, temp at 425-450 range. At that point it should be around 74-75 in here at 20 degrees. At least that is what my records say.

I shook the crap out the stove and poked a poker down through the grates a few days ago. Every time I shake down the entire area underneath is glowing bright.
JohnnyV
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 254
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: Pellet stove far end of house
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 254

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: Rigar On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:46 pm

....if that insulation is essentially a foil bubble wrap (like used for ductwork or radiant heat...rocking over it has essentially eliminated its effectiveness.
It provides excellent radiant performance...but a poor "true" R-value
...is this the ONLY insulation in the walls???
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
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Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:04 pm

Rigar wrote:....if that insulation is essentially a foil bubble wrap (like used for ductwork or radiant heat...rocking over it has essentially eliminated its effectiveness.
It provides excellent radiant performance...but a poor "true" R-value
...is this the ONLY insulation in the walls???

BINGO
windyhill4.2
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Other Heating: Oaktree OWB 600K

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: fastcat On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:06 pm

When did you start burning this year? Does the stove have a horizontal pipe into the chimney? Were all the pipes cleaned before starting this year? McG had a good point about fly ash in pipe, temps up till now have been fairly warm so our fires have been idling with very little draft so instead of the fly ash going out the top of the chimney it is laying in the pipe. If you open the ash pan door how long does it take for the fire to really start roaring? Thinking about it I have cleaned the T on the outlet of the stove twice this year already, I go straight up.
fastcat
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Nut/Stove Mix

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: oliver power On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:25 pm

You guys are hitting all around the problem. I see this all the time. You did NOT install a film of plastic on the interior wall as a vapor barrier. The drywall not being finished, allows moisture to escape. When you finished the drywall, you trapped in any moisture, which condensates on the insulation (mostly at ceiling), rendering it less effective. When the outside temps drop, you will notice it. The good part; it will get more comfortable as we get more into the heating season. You'll notice this happen every year. Lots of moisture in a house at the start of every heating season. Any remodel, or new construction job I've been around, if they installed a film of plastic from floor to ceiling as a moisture barrier, the rooms are nice and toasty, and draft free. If they didn't install the film of plastic, you'll feel that uncomfortable chill. Installing the film of plastic use to be common practice. On a more recent job, I asked the insulation guys why some jobs they put the plastic, and some they don't. They said it's at the customers request. Not to be an alarmist but, the rigid foam board you installed on the exterior should have foil on only one side. And that side is the side facing the heat. The side facing the siding should be foil free. In the warmer climates, it's just the opposite. Just remember; "the foiled side faces the heat". Oliver
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
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Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: JohnnyV On: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:43 pm

Rigar wrote:....if that insulation is essentially a foil bubble wrap (like used for ductwork or radiant heat...rocking over it has essentially eliminated its effectiveness.
It provides excellent radiant performance...but a poor "true" R-value
...is this the ONLY insulation in the walls???

It isn't a bubble wrap it is a foam. I used it when I redid our living room and it worked fine as it has been warmer in there. This is the only insulation in the wall.

fastcat wrote:When did you start burning this year? Does the stove have a horizontal pipe into the chimney? Were all the pipes cleaned before starting this year? McG had a good point about fly ash in pipe, temps up till now have been fairly warm so our fires have been idling with very little draft so instead of the fly ash going out the top of the chimney it is laying in the pipe. If you open the ash pan door how long does it take for the fire to really start roaring? Thinking about it I have cleaned the T on the outlet of the stove twice this year already, I go straight up.

I started burning Oct. 18th. The pipes and flue cleaned Oct. 17th. It takes a little while to get going. Next warmer day coming up I will check it. Didn't think about that but with the mixture of cold and warm days early on I can see where the ash would accumulate. But, my question is, why/how would that affect the heat output of the stove? Stove temp is as hot as before.

oliver power wrote:You guys are hitting all around the problem. I see this all the time. You did NOT install a film of plastic on the interior wall as a vapor barrier. The drywall not being finished, allows moisture to escape. When you finished the drywall, you trapped in any moisture, which condensates on the insulation (mostly at ceiling), rendering it less effective. When the outside temps drop, you will notice it. The good part; it will get more comfortable as we get more into the heating season. You'll notice this happen every year. Lots of moisture in a house at the start of every heating season. Any remodel, or new construction job I've been around, if they installed a film of plastic from floor to ceiling as a moisture barrier, the rooms are nice and toasty, and draft free. If they didn't install the film of plastic, you'll feel that uncomfortable chill. Installing the film of plastic use to be common practice. On a more recent job, I asked the insulation guys why some jobs they put the plastic, and some they don't. They said it's at the customers request. Not to be an alarmist but, the rigid foam board you installed on the exterior should have foil on only one side. And that side is the side facing the heat. The side facing the siding should be foil free. In the warmer climates, it's just the opposite. Just remember; "the foiled side faces the heat". Oliver

The instructions said vapor barrier wasn't needed. Makes sense though. From what I could tell/remember there was no rigid foam board under the siding, just some kind of compressed black insulated sheeting then insulated metal siding on that. I did nothing to the outside, just the inside.
JohnnyV
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 254
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: Pellet stove far end of house
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 254

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: Rigar On: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:50 am

...the bottom line is this-
1/4 inch foam insulation...with or without a 'vapor barrier (which by the way the foil provides)...will never have an R-value of 14.5...
...not even on a good day

...The poly sheething that some ppl use before hanging rock helps elimnate air infiltration.
it also needs to be installed over UNFACED insulation by the way
...back to back layers of a impermiable material inside the home may trap condensation and can lead to mold growth
Rigar
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 150
Coal Size/Type: anthracite rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: A 150 warm air furnace

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:38 am

Rigar wrote:...the bottom line is this-
1/4 inch foam insulation...with or without a 'vapor barrier (which by the way the foil provides)...will never have an R-value of 14.5...
...not even on a good day

...The poly sheething that some ppl use before hanging rock helps elimnate air infiltration.
it also needs to be installed over UNFACED insulation by the way
...back to back layers of a impermiable material inside the home may trap condensation and can lead to mold growth
Yes Rigar, you are correct....... And it goes deeper yet into subject. As far as that R-value being 14.5; without looking it up, I'd say it was more like 1.45. R-value on rigid board insulation isn't much. Most everything has an R-value, including air film. What caught my attention is Tyvek house wrap. As good / effective as it is, the R-value of Tyvek is "0".
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
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Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: JohnnyV On: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:01 am

I happened to stumble upon something last night and my inquisitive mind wants to know the why.

I finally started to get the heat. After fixing the fire for the night, I thought I had the mpd pushed in all of the way. After about 15-30 minutes I said to the Mrs. I think it is getting warmer in here. She agreed and even took the blanket off. After about an hour, the temp in the room went from 68 to 72 even as the outside temp dropped. It is now 13 outside and 72 in here. Awesome. Finally getting the heat coming off of the stove. The other day it was 33 outside and only 70 in here. I got up and walked over to the stove to see what it was burning at and it was at 450. That is great. That is what I would burn it last year and getting it this warm in here. The heat was really coming off of the stove and I could not stand it to close as I could before at 500 degrees.

My question: Why would opening the MPD, even a minute amount, make the heat come off of the stove? Wouldn't that make more heat go up the flue? The pipe after the baro is hotter as now I can only keep my hand on it for a little while. Am I getting radiant heat from the stove pipe now? I think I may need to quit asking why and hope that this solved my problem.

I am still going to do more troubleshooting, but am thinking this might have worked. Find out today as the high is going to be 15 with a windchill in the lower single digits.

Thanks for the help guys. You bring valuable insight and ideas that I never thought of in looking for the problem.
JohnnyV
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 254
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: Pellet stove far end of house
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 254

Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:10 am

I am going to weigh in on this one against my better judgement. There is another thread 16 pages long about mpd's and I disagree with most of it. Your insulation is nothing but a dead air space created by the rock and outer wall. The foam used is only marginally better then a sheet of plastic. More like the stuff people put on the outside under vinyl siding. The reason for the increase in heat is that the mpd does not magically "hold" heat in the stove. It is controlling the amount of draft pulling in combustion air. More air, more heat. Coal is different then wood, but if it ain't burning, it ain't heating. No magic. Flue temps tend to run cooler then wood because wood has more volatiles that burn off "over" the fire and get sucked up the pipe. Why else would a forge have a bellows to increase the heat if more air did not equal more heat?

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
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Re: Troubleshooting is driving me nuts

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:40 am

JohnnyV wrote:I happened to stumble upon something last night and my inquisitive mind wants to know the why.

I finally started to get the heat. After fixing the fire for the night, I thought I had the mpd pushed in all of the way. After about 15-30 minutes I said to the Mrs. I think it is getting warmer in here. She agreed and even took the blanket off. After about an hour, the temp in the room went from 68 to 72 even as the outside temp dropped. It is now 13 outside and 72 in here. Awesome. Finally getting the heat coming off of the stove. The other day it was 33 outside and only 70 in here. I got up and walked over to the stove to see what it was burning at and it was at 450. That is great. That is what I would burn it last year and getting it this warm in here. The heat was really coming off of the stove and I could not stand it to close as I could before at 500 degrees.

My question: Why would opening the MPD, even a minute amount, make the heat come off of the stove? Wouldn't that make more heat go up the flue? The pipe after the baro is hotter as now I can only keep my hand on it for a little while. Am I getting radiant heat from the stove pipe now? I think I may need to quit asking why and hope that this solved my problem.

I am still going to do more troubleshooting, but am thinking this might have worked. Find out today as the high is going to be 15 with a windchill in the lower single digits.

Thanks for the help guys. You bring valuable insight and ideas that I never thought of in looking for the problem.
Sounds to me like you don't have a problem. You need to play with your stove. Learn what makes it perform best. Looks like you're heading in the right direction.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

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