Finally installed manometer!

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: dustyashpan On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:18 pm

mandated EPA legal logo sticker on ID plate all newer stoves. take a look. no new stove exempt. passed these rules 1970-80s era & later. old stoves grandfathered exempt. cant make everyone scrap old stoves cuz of law. not everyone wants & can afford new stove.
manometer readings OP topic. operating chimney is like big vacuum cleaner. put one hose on vacuum, pulls real hard. put 2 separate hoses on same vacuum cleaner, pulls less hard on each. put 5 hoses on same vacuum, pulls even less on each hose. vacuum drops as more vents fed.
above fire bleeds air, takes chimney draw away from below fire ashpan draft air. I checked this. blocked window vents in Harman, fire burned harder same knob setting, could turn draft knob down more & maintain same fire. Harman has tiny slit above fire bleeds, not a problem.
some stoves have huge above fire air bleeds & are problematic, typical low draft issues, & MPD, baro, etc install effort to recover draft.
dustyashpan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Atlanta Homesteader, Harman
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Medal Dockash No.150 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: nut stove pea

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: ridgeracing On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:20 pm

I understand better, but now I am confused more. Lol
ridgeracing
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine Stove
Stove/Furnace Make: D.S Machine
Stove/Furnace Model: DS1600WH

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:26 pm

forget it RR, you figured out how to make your stove keep you warm without the Mano. with the new info you found that you might have been using a few hundred #'s of coal more than others, so what, you're still warm, keep on keepin' on.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

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Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:31 pm

Lightning wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:
Lightning wrote:As a matter of fact I've seen just the opposite happen. If more secondary air is added, the chimney draft will get stronger as more heated air mass is pulling up the chimney. More chimney draft means more primary air as well.



Does it continue to do that, or just at first for a while ?

Paul


It continues to pull better. I used to have chimney draft failures during warm weather burns until I learned that
Excessive secondary air helps drafting. Now, even today, I have my secondary air with the bigger openings on them. This technique has never failed me. Secondary air promotes draft strength.

@Dusty
.06 + .04 DOES NOT EQUAL .10 in this case

Look, I understand that it doesn't fit logic on the surface but this is exactly what happens in the big picture.


It's likely logical if one were to consider the square area of the top of your stove's coal bed and the volume of heat it can put out in relation to the size of the flue pipe, . . verse say a stove with a much smaller coal bed area, but not equally smaller pipe. I think that if we measured and down-size a small firebox's flue pipe to similar proportion as yours, it may do the same as your stove does. ?????

I find it interesting to read about all the differences in coal stove designs and how they react.

Makes wood stoves pretty boring ! :D

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:32 pm

@ king coal Yes I agree That adjusting the secondary will impact draft after the chimney reacts to the change. But to say one steals from the other is what I'm not on board with.

@ Dusty I'm not out to persuade anyone with fixed ideas. I just don't like seeing people unintentionally misguided..... :)

Please carry on...
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:33 pm

dustyashpan wrote:mandated EPA legal logo sticker on ID plate all newer stoves. take a look. no new stove exempt. passed these rules 1970-80s era & later. old stoves grandfathered exempt. cant make everyone scrap old stoves cuz of law. not everyone wants & can afford new stove.
manometer readings OP topic. operating chimney is like big vacuum cleaner. put one hose on vacuum, pulls real hard. put 2 separate hoses on same vacuum cleaner, pulls less hard on each. put 5 hoses on same vacuum, pulls even less on each hose. vacuum drops as more vents fed.
above fire bleeds air, takes chimney draw away from below fire ashpan draft air. I checked this. blocked window vents in Harman, fire burned harder same knob setting, could turn draft knob down more & maintain same fire. Harman has tiny slit above fire bleeds, not a problem.
some stoves have huge above fire air bleeds & are problematic, typical low draft issues, & MPD, baro, etc install effort to recover draft.


Dusty,
I don't have anyway to see a new coal stove tag. Would you have a picture of one ?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:38 pm

Ah the science of coal hahaha yes me and wood burning would not work now would it lol wood is for beavers :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: dustyashpan On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:48 pm

EPA tagged. when I burn wood, breaking federal law.

Image

Image

EPA site for wood stoves.
http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/approved.html

changeout
http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/how-to-guide.html
dustyashpan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Atlanta Homesteader, Harman
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Medal Dockash No.150 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: nut stove pea

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Keepaeyeonit On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:07 pm

Not taking sides,don't know enough to have any input but heres a pic of my tag on the stove and one of a tag that was in the manual.
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Keepaeyeonit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 983 insert
Coal Size/Type: Mammoth nut
Other Heating: oil furnace,and a crappy heat pump

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:34 pm

I think there's a misunderstanding here about EPA compliance.

That tag you show says nothing about EPA coal regulations or compliance with regulations. It just says that appliance is for burning coal only, and using any other type of fuel in it is against Federal law. Being illegal for burning anything other than coal is because stoves for other types of fuels ARE regulated by the EPA.

Here's an example of an EPA compliant domestic use stove and the tag info it has. Two pix of the tag on the back of my Napoleon wood stove. Notice the similarities to your picture. But, more importantly the additional info about being in compliance with EPA emission standards as of the date of manufacture.

In case anyone can't make it out, it says;

"US ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTUION AGENCY Certified to comply with July 1992 Particulate Emission Standards.
EPA 028888 "

That EPA compliance notice and the number are not listed on coal stoves because there is no need for compliance what with domestic use coal stoves being exempt.

If anyone can find any regulation on the EPA website that says domestic use coal stoves aren't exempt from emission standards, I'd be interested to see it. As I said, I searched the EPA site and found nothing regulating coal stoves, other than commercial coal stoves.

Paul
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Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:39 pm

Thanks Keepaneye.

Like the others coal stoves are showing, no mention of EPA compliance.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:46 pm

ridgeracing wrote:I understand better, but now I am confused more. Lol


It's easy, maintain anywhere between a -.03 and -.05 and your stove will do the best it can partner :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Photog200 On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:51 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:I think there's a misunderstanding here about EPA compliance.

That tag you show says nothing about EPA coal regulations or compliance with regulations. It just says that appliance is for burning coal only, and using any other type of fuel in it is against Federal law. Being illegal for burning anything other than coal is because stoves for other types of fuels ARE regulated by the EPA.

Here's an example of an EPA compliant domestic use stove and the tag info it has. Two pix of the tag on the back of my Napoleon wood stove. Notice the similarities to your picture. But, more importantly the additional info about being in compliance with EPA emission standards as of the date of manufacture.

In case anyone can't make it out, it says;

"US ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTUION AGENCY Certified to comply with July 1992 Particulate Emission Standards.
EPA 028888 "

That EPA compliance notice and the number are not listed on coal stoves because there is no need for compliance what with domestic use coal stoves being exempt.

When I first started looking at coal stoves, I went to a Hitzer and Harmon dealer and I was told the same thing that Paul just said. The dealer told me that coal stoves and cook stoves (both wood and coal) are not regulated by EPA. So, unless two different dealers mislead me, I would have to agree with Paul. I also just went to the EPA website and could not find any regulations on domestic coal stoves. When I did a search, all I got was regulation for coal burning electric utilities.
Randy
If anyone can find any regulation on the EPA website that says domestic use coal stoves aren't exempt from emission standards, I'd be interested to see it. As I said, I searched the EPA site and found nothing regulating coal stoves, other than commercial coal stoves.

Paul
Photog200
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, & Kineo #15 base heater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: ridgeracing On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:53 pm

I am curious if blocking some or all of my secondary holes (8) that are about 1/4 in. In size. If it's all about EPA emissions and I would gain better performance out of my stove, I am for it !
ridgeracing
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine Stove
Stove/Furnace Make: D.S Machine
Stove/Furnace Model: DS1600WH

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:01 pm

You gotta be careful. Those secondary air holes help keep volatile gases diluted when fresh coal is put on. Otherwise they can explode. You can plug some of them later in the burn but not all. I say not all because secondary are helps draft if it's not very cold outside.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

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