Finally installed manometer!

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:08 pm

" When I first started looking at coal stoves, I went to a Hitzer and Harmon dealer and I was told the same thing that Paul just said. The dealer told me that coal stoves and cook stoves (both wood and coal) are not regulated by EPA. So, unless two different dealers mislead me, I would have to agree with Paul. I also just went to the EPA website and could not find any regulations on domestic coal stoves. When I did a search, all I got was regulation for coal burning electric utilities.
Randy "

--------------------------------------------------

Thanks Randy.

If it wasn't raining I could be out making a dust cloud sandblasting 118 parts and not wasting that warm weather your sending. Instead, I'm kicking up dust in here ! :D

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Photog200 On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:" When I first started looking at coal stoves, I went to a Hitzer and Harmon dealer and I was told the same thing that Paul just said. The dealer told me that coal stoves and cook stoves (both wood and coal) are not regulated by EPA. So, unless two different dealers mislead me, I would have to agree with Paul. I also just went to the EPA website and could not find any regulations on domestic coal stoves. When I did a search, all I got was regulation for coal burning electric utilities.
Randy "

--------------------------------------------------

Thanks Randy.

If it wasn't raining I could be out making a dust cloud sandblasting 118 parts and not wasting that warm weather your sending. Instead, I'm kicking up dust in here ! :D

Paul

I didn't realize that rain made a difference, unless your bay is outside? Does the humidity effect the sandblaster?

Kicking up dust in here eh...well, I guess that's why they make Swiffers! LOL
Photog200
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, Kineo #15 base burner & Geneva Oak Andes #517
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:41 pm

Yes. The sand holds moisture. I use a mix of fine sand and black beauty slag. The black beauty doesn't hold enough moisture to bother, but the sand will. Then I have in-line air/water separators and coalescing filters to keep compressor air dry.

My "sand box" is an enclosed, corrugated fiberglass paneled, one car garage. But there's open vent space between each roof rafter, the roof, and the wall cap. Plus the doors have to be open to vent the dust or with in minutes I'm blasting by brail. :D

But, even with being under a roof, using dry air to the baster, and dry sand, the damp air around the outside of the nozzle gets pulled along with the high speed air/sand blast. On damp days, on just cleaned steel or cast iron, you can watch the rust form only inches away from where your blasting.

With the rain and the dew point causing ground fog like today, I couldn't blast faster then it would rust ! :shock:

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Visit Hitzer Stoves

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: ridgeracing On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:01 pm

Ok, thanks for info, mine has never poped or exploded, don't want that
ridgeracing
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine Stove
Stove/Furnace Make: D.S Machine
Stove/Furnace Model: DS1600WH

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:21 am

Lightning wrote:@ king coal Yes I agree That adjusting the secondary will impact draft after the chimney reacts to the change. But to say one steals from the other is what I'm not on board with.

@ Dusty I'm not out to persuade anyone with fixed ideas. I just don't like seeing people unintentionally misguided..... :)

Please carry on...


as i watch this DSM 1400 i come to understand that it functions much more like an organism than a machine, esp. in regards to the operation of the fixed secondaries. some one put significant consideration into the location, volume and outlets of this simple looking feature.

SOME HOW, if and when the natural draft inhancers ( outside temp. wind etc. ) are low and the over fire draft is less than -.04 WC, the stove draws more secondary and keeps the exit flow moving with positive momentum. this also checks the chance of CO escape.

alternatively, when the over fire draft is .04 / .06 WC the stove draws less secondary.

how totally escapes me since the inlets and outlets are open the same amount in each case.

i have watched a controlled trial of this using a pair of incense sticks in the same location and height on both sides of the stove.

when i have the stove running at a steady state and use the MPD's to drop the draft to .03, the stove pulls the smoke plume straight away from the stick at a 90* angle and into the inlets.

when i use the MPD's to allow -.05 or more the plume meanders around and expands next to the stove and is slowly but steadily drawn in. i have no explanation for this, just recurrent observation.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Lightning On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:08 am

It's gotta be because of some kind of turbulence the holes are causing at different pressures. But even then it seems like a bigger degree of variance in pressure would be needed to see a difference in how the smoke behaves. I don't know lol :lol:

But implying the secondary air passages are allowing less volume at higher pressure doesn't make sense to me yet. Maybe there is another explanation.

It troubles me further to think that someone with a weak chimney now has a very inefficient stove. I don't think the designers would want that. My chimney never pulls that hard unless it's zero outside and burning hot.
Last edited by Lightning on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:15 am

Never say never ! There are exceptions to the rules. Some we just haven't found out why yet.

This is where I think it gets interesting. Stoves that work, yet somehow work in ways we wouldn't normally expect.

Like Lee's drafts better on warm days with more air from the secondarys. If I tried that with my old stove it would slow down the burn, not increase it.

You've got a good head scratcher there and I'd be interested to know what is happening and why.

What happens to your stove and stack temps with those MPD changes ?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:17 am

Lightning wrote:It's gotta be because of some kind of turbulence the holes are causing at different pressures. But even then it seems like a bigger degree of variance in pressure would be needed to see a difference in how the smoke behaves. I don't know lol :lol:

But implying the secondary air passages are allowing less volume at higher pressure doesn't make sense to me yet. Maybe there is another explanation.


Without seeing pictures of the size and shape of the primary and secondary openings, you may have hit the nail on the head Lee.
Remember what I said about hole edge -affect restricting air flow for smaller holes?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: ridgeracing On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:34 pm

With temps outside at 60 and house at 74 I turned stove down to 240deg. last night. This morning my draft was just under .02 so I opened mpd 100% to obtain a solid .02 draft. I will monitor it threw out day to insure I have draft at that low of a burn. If for some reason it drops to .01 I will turn stove up. Does any one find this wrong/bad. Any suggestions?
ridgeracing
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine Stove
Stove/Furnace Make: D.S Machine
Stove/Furnace Model: DS1600WH

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:37 pm

Nope, you got it well under control:)
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:41 pm

If your getting anything like the wind gusts here, I'd watch the mano for a while and see if gets pushed down near zero. If not you should be ok. If it does, you may want to bump it up a bit for some higher draft for safety sake.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: ridgeracing On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:46 pm

For the most part my draft stays consistent even with wind gust. Thanks for all replies!
ridgeracing
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine Stove
Stove/Furnace Make: D.S Machine
Stove/Furnace Model: DS1600WH

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Lightning On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:00 pm

I haven't looked into edge effect to see how it behaves at low pressures. I can see how it would be valid under high pressures. :D

Hard saying If the designers used this to their advantage.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:49 pm

Lightning wrote:I haven't looked into edge effect to see how it behaves at low pressures. I can see how it would be valid under high pressures. :D

Hard saying If the designers used this to their advantage.


As the hole size gets smaller, it shuts off any increase in air flow, that much sooner. Conversely, to help reduce that affect and flow more air, radiusing the leading edges of the hole helps air speed up and transition into the hole more smoothly, without having to increase the size of the hole. Like going into the flared shape of a trumpet.

Just spit-balling again, but I wonder if edge affect induced turbulence as the air flow tries to increase could be any part of what is happening here ?????

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Finally installed manometer!

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:53 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Never say never ! There are exceptions to the rules. Some we just haven't found out why yet.

This is where I think it gets interesting. Stoves that work, yet somehow work in ways we wouldn't normally expect.

Like Lee's drafts better on warm days with more air from the secondarys. If I tried that with my old stove it would slow down the burn, not increase it.

You've got a good head scratcher there and I'd be interested to know what is happening and why.

What happens to your stove and stack temps with those MPD changes ?

Paul


the stove temp. stays the same over the amount of time it takes to run the experiment but, when the draft is forced lower and the secondaries are giving more the pipe temp. drops.

the secondary tract is a 1"x1" square steel tube open at both ends 21.5" long across the inside of the stove just inside and level with the lower door ledge, this is also the upper keeper for the front fire brick.

going both directions from the centerline on the top of that tube is a total of 9 - 3/8" holes on 1 5/8" centers. those holes are very square edged.

as you say, a stove that is doing something, just not clear what, other than keeping my house nice and warm.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Visit Hitzer Stoves