Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:42 pm

dj, if there were a large quantity of hydrocarbons in anthracite and the chimney cooled to the due point, that could be true. It most likely isn't true for anthracite combustion. There's very little hydrocarbon content in anthracite as it's around 90% carbon and why anthracite needs primarily an under fire oxygen supply. The largest component in the exhaust gas is CO2 and CO plus very little water vapor. On a very cold day, did you ever see a stream of condensation leaving a coal fire chimney like you do from an oil or nat gas fueled chimney? There isn't any because there's little water vapor in the exhaust. It's impossible to reach the % relative humidity and temperature combination in a warm chimney fueled by anthracite and attain the due point where you'd have condensation. With respect to %RH, it's like the Sahara in there. The %RH/temperature combo will dehydrate the moisture that might possibly be in the fly ash on the walls. Now, with wood or bit it much more likely- who knows with all those juicy hydrocarbons flying around.
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:54 pm

PJT wrote:Ok newbie question here....If you have a terra cotta lined chimney does burning coal affect it at all? How about the mortar?


NO, it will outlast you, your kids, your grand kids, and then some..
grumpy
 

Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: dlj On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:31 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:dj, if there were a large quantity of hydrocarbons in anthracite and the chimney cooled to the due point, that could be true. It most likely isn't true for anthracite combustion. There's very little hydrocarbon content in anthracite as it's around 90% carbon and why anthracite needs primarily an under fire oxygen supply. The largest component in the exhaust gas is CO2 and CO plus very little water vapor. On a very cold day, did you ever see a stream of condensation leaving a coal fire chimney like you do from an oil or nat gas fueled chimney? There isn't any because there's little water vapor in the exhaust. It's impossible to reach the % relative humidity and temperature combination in a warm chimney fueled by anthracite and attain the due point where you'd have condensation. With respect to %RH, it's like the Sahara in there. The %RH/temperature combo will dehydrate the moisture that might possibly be in the fly ash on the walls. Now, with wood or bit it much more likely- who knows with all those juicy hydrocarbons flying around.


VigIIPeaBurner,

Sorry dude - there is always water in the flue gases - here's an example dealing specifically with coal combustion. Without going through all the equations leading up to how these are done, this is the example page showing the input and output from coal combustion.... Noted that in the winter the standard conditions that these combustion equations are solved under are not the same, there is still water going up the stack. In this example it shows 0.624 pounds of water per pound of coal being fed into the stove... That will reduce in the winter, but you will always have water going up the stack...

dj


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dlj
 
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:46 pm

grumpy wrote:
PJT wrote:Ok newbie question here....If you have a terra cotta lined chimney does burning coal affect it at all? How about the mortar?


NO, it will outlast you, your kids, your grand kids, and then some..


About 20 yeas ago I called in the local Superflue contractor for an estimate. :shock: . At the time I read that process got it's start in England because it lasts longer. Apparently, their coal rots out masonry chimneys in about 20 years.

I wonder if coal type could also account for some of the differences in pipe life we seeing ?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: PJT On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:00 pm

What kind of coal do they burn in Jolly Olde? I remember being in England/Scotland about 30 years ago and there often being a funny smell in some of the towns...not a really bad smell but kind of a sickly sweet smell of something being burned......always wondered if that was coal....I remember thinking at the time that they had probably cut way back on coal burning........also remember them cleaning the outsides of some of the buildings in Glasgow and the before and after was amazing....always attributed that to coal burning (rightly or wrongly).....
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:03 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
grumpy wrote:
PJT wrote:Ok newbie question here....If you have a terra cotta lined chimney does burning coal affect it at all? How about the mortar?


NO, it will outlast you, your kids, your grand kids, and then some..


About 20 yeas ago I called in the local Superflue contractor for an estimate. :shock: . At the time I read that process got it's start in England because it lasts longer. Apparently, their coal rots out masonry chimneys in about 20 years.

I wonder if coal type could also account for some of the differences in pipe life we seeing ?

Paul



Masonry or tile?
grumpy
 

Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:14 pm

Try http://www.supaflu.com I do remember it being shown as a cast in place constant no seam liner. They put an air bladder in place and pour their Proprietary Refractory Material mix in. Dflate the bladder and Whallah ! :gee:
Last edited by Hambden Bob on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:19 pm

That links not working, not for me anyway..

grumpy
 

Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: JohnB On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:23 pm

I was quoted about $40,000 to reline my center chimney, multi fireplace chimney using the pour in system last summer. I promptly ordered the new stainless liner.
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: grumpy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:24 pm

Yeah, no kidding you did...
grumpy
 

Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:12 pm

PJT wrote:Ok newbie question here....If you have a terra cotta lined chimney does burning coal affect it at all? How about the mortar?


About 20 yeas ago I called in the local Superflue contractor for an estimate. :shock: . At the time I read that process got it's start in England because it lasts longer. Apparently, their coal rots out masonry chimneys in about 20 years.

I wonder if coal type could also account for some of the differences in pipe life we seeing ?

Paul[/quote]


Masonry or tile?[/quote]

Grumpy, I'm don't remember what they said the Brit chimneys were made of, just that the Superflu stuff was made from, I think, volcanic ash and held up better, but not forever.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:15 pm

JohnB wrote:I was quoted about $40,000 to reline my center chimney, multi fireplace chimney using the pour in system last summer. I promptly ordered the new stainless liner.


Wow, that's gone up. I was quoted about $1400.00 almost 40 foot chimney one large flue, with some repointing work up top too. But that was 20 years ago.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:17 pm

dlj wrote:
VigIIPeaBurner wrote:dj, if there were a large quantity of hydrocarbons in anthracite and the chimney cooled to the due point, that could be true. It most likely isn't true for anthracite combustion. There's very little hydrocarbon content in anthracite as it's around 90% carbon and why anthracite needs primarily an under fire oxygen supply. The largest component in the exhaust gas is CO2 and CO plus very little water vapor. On a very cold day, did you ever see a stream of condensation leaving a coal fire chimney like you do from an oil or nat gas fueled chimney? There isn't any because there's little water vapor in the exhaust. It's impossible to reach the % relative humidity and temperature combination in a warm chimney fueled by anthracite and attain the due point where you'd have condensation. With respect to %RH, it's like the Sahara in there. The %RH/temperature combo will dehydrate the moisture that might possibly be in the fly ash on the walls. Now, with wood or bit it much more likely- who knows with all those juicy hydrocarbons flying around.


VigIIPeaBurner,

Sorry dude - there is always water in the flue gases - here's an example dealing specifically with coal combustion.... 8< ...

dj


Yo my Man - did I say there wasn't any? This dude refered to the amount of hydrocarbons in other fuels vs anthracite and the possibility of condensation occurring inside of the flue. The %RH and flue temperature inside the flue don't reach the Dew Point. The example of not seeing a condensation plume when the exhaust leaves the chimney top serves as a further example. This was extended from the discussion about liquid water being applied with baking soda to protect SS chimney parts.

It appears that the example on the page you posted is suggesting bituminous is the fuel. The example in the states the carbon content at **72% carbon. A wikipedia search characterizes Bit at carbon content from **60-80% while anthracite's carbon content is generally 92 - 98% carbon. I agree there's likely much more water with bit as suggested at the end of the quoted post.

    ^^not an expert but still learning :)

**/^^ Edit: %Carbon is not as tight as the wikipedia link states. Indeed sub grades of anthracite do go below 70% carbon.
Last edited by VigIIPeaBurner on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: Berlin On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Coal attacks stainless steel in three ways, chlorine attack, sulfur attack, and, most importantly, iron particle induced pitting corrosion. There is a lot of iron in coal exhaust flyash. The small iron particle allows a pit to occur in the stainless liner which (together with the low o2 level in exhaust gasses) continues to rot without allowing the replenishing of the passivation layer.

If you have a masonry stack, lined or unlined in decent structural shape, you are far better off than with stainless (or with a stainless liner). We have had at least two people on this board with documented stainless liner collapses (in addition to the many cases on this site of stainless failures) causing flue blockage, lack of draft and CO entering the home. Probably the safest thing you can do with a coal appliance on an otherwise sound stack (lined or unlined w/ tile) is to remove or not install a stainless liner. If you're concerned about a stack w/ mediocre draft, fix the stack properly and extend the height, don't add a stainless liner.

Interestingly enough, this iron particle pitting corrosion also happens with fuel oil - especially in situations where an older tank has a nice layer of algae. The algae and water allow microscopic iron to enter the fuel stream, the burner, and pass through the flame into the stack. I've personally seen it destroy stainless w/ fuel oil in less than 15 years.

As far as masonry chimneys in england; no, they're not rotting out in 20 years. In fact, there are numerous unlined and tile lined stacks that have regularly been used with high chlorine/ high sulfur british coals for well over a century with little internal deterioration. The brits used a lot of lime based mortar, and, when combined with high chlorine, high sulfur coals, certain unlined flues after a century or so have deteriorated, especially when later connected with a gas appliance. Yes, the brits did use a lot of native coal that was extremely high in chlorine (higher than almost anywhere else in the world) and very high levels of sulfur (5%+).
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Re: Using a SS chimney (Dura-Vent) with a coal stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:21 pm

PJT wrote:What kind of coal do they burn in Jolly Olde? I remember being in England/Scotland about 30 years ago and there often being a funny smell in some of the towns...not a really bad smell but kind of a sickly sweet smell of something being burned......always wondered if that was coal....I remember thinking at the time that they had probably cut way back on coal burning........also remember them cleaning the outsides of some of the buildings in Glasgow and the before and after was amazing....always attributed that to coal burning (rightly or wrongly).....



Haggis cooking ? :D
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, Modern Oak 118.
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