Restoring my new to me 404

Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:05 am

I thought I would start a new thread as I finally have it on site and eager to put into service. It needs the following.
Glass 1 pane
Gaskets door windows and ash pan. dcrane any idea what size? Do I go by the width of the groove? IE 1/2 inch groove is 1/2 inch diameter gasket?
Shaker handle dcrane if you have one please PM ME.
I put a bunch of heat and PB Blaster on the broken door hinge parts hoping to get them out and make new pins.
I have a couple of D shaped cast pieces I think go at the end of the grates and an assembly diagram would certainly help but will take a try at the end of the grates.
I need stove paint but that is easy as it comes in black and black..LOL..
Pics to follow.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: dcrane On: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:28 pm

detailed pics of the door hinges would be good.

the grate system on a 404 is detailed in the manual thanks to our good friend coalvet Crane 404 Owners Manual (grate system starts at page 8 but its a good read and you should read it cover to cover... acually print it and keep it with stove! , but the 2 end plates do indeed go on the last slots on either side and then rest on the cam shaft towards the rear of the stove. inbetween these "end plates" rest all the alternating 4 nub and 3 nub finger grates. If you have it all apart you can do a couple things to try and better its performance #1 grind smoother/nicer each side of finger grates to give a more "machined" look (no casting boogers, etc.) #2 put loads of some high temp grease (or that new powdery high temp grease) on the stop shaft (the part that goes through the stove) prior to assembly. #3 grind nice and smooth the outside of the firepot (dont leave any boogers/bumps ...right up the lip! (lil' booger/bump could be a huge downfall years down the road if a slight warp occurs!) #4 on the removable baffle (as it hangs, you will notice on either side if you "bank" coal as much as me some of the spill over could go behind that baffle, a better design would be to block the lower 1.5" of those lower sides of the baffle, super easy to do if you have a welding machine handy!) #5 show me photos of the secondary air holes on the firepot flange (those were increased in later years and should be drilled out larger if possible).

door gasket slots should be 3/8ths (not 1/2 inch)... use 1/2 gasket and stretch it in place (try not to place seam on corner but rather the hinge side middle), glass gasket is all the same slotted flat self stick stuff)... go with the newer grey colored graphite shyt (its better). when your tightning the glass down using the brackets... for the love of god tighten JUST SNUG, evenly, and LEAVE IT! (this forum just saved you $75.00 with that one sentence alone :lol: )

You can look at my thread about painting a 404 as well for tips on that if you want to get fancy the 404 can be pretty nice... Repaint & Tune up Crane Model 404
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:20 am

Hi Doug thanks for the tips.
Tractor Supply has the 1/2 gasket you mentioned in stock along with a 90 degree black elbow to hook up to my existing stack along with a 6 inch flue damper in case I need it.

The local glass shop has the glass I need and said they would cut while I wait as it is a simple rectangle. No price mentioned but will ask before they cut it. I got 2 of the frozen bolts out of the glass retainer straps and have 2 more to go along with one broken hinge pin in the door. I need to pick up another tank of gas at the lumber yard for the torch and do the heat and soak cycle on the screws and pins and maybe I get lucky there, need stove paint as well.

What purpose do the metal screens on the outside of the glass serve? Mine are in pretty grim shape.
If they are just a trim part I will leave them out rather than fool with them.
Here are some pics more to come.

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ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: dcrane On: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:51 am

grates are fine (notice the U shaped side, inside that U wants to be smooth like butter if possible and the other side you can see lil' build up of ash on the flat that slides back and forth, you want that flat that rides back and forth to be smooth like butter for best and quietest operation)

the window screens are not required or needed for U/L approval anymore (You can remove them if you wish)

the froze 10/32 self tap machine screws on the window brackets are easy... if you snap one or two simply drill a new hole next to the "snapped" one and get a 10/32 tap and new 10/32 machine screws... i usually grind of the bottom of the tap slightly to enable myself to get some threads cut lower into the door (you only have about 1/2 inch of meat to work with) the long slots on the brackets provide for plenty of room to place a hole next to the "snapped" piece... if you snap one flush or worst and you cant get it out (DO NOT attempt to remove it or drill it!!! it will only lead to pulling your hair out and ruining your chance of a nice clean simple hole next to it).

the door hinge is your biggest hurdle!!! she is snapped of at the weld (which is on the underside of the part remaining on stove)... you can PB blast the door and tap out that pin from the door itself, then... your going to have to drill out that weld i spoke of on the piece on the stove (you have to drill down on it or grind flat the bottom of it and dimple it to drill up), most people will simply then use a bolt to slip down through as opposed to trying to weld a new pin from underneath (it really needs to be a heliarch/tig weld under their or it needs to be hand welded/puddled with a torch both of which take some skill). Larry trainer at Chubby stoves has some nice crimp on washers and drop down pins that im sure he would mail to you if needed he is a very close friend and would not be dis shoveled at all about you having a Crane (the crimp on washers help to keep door from any "play" if you cant get really nice fitting bolts/pins to drop down in the holes you drill nice and snug), this is less of a problem if its only one broke pin on each door (if both are broke your going to want to take the time to get nice drop down pins and an accurate drill for holes to match the pins (i suggest maintaining every couple years with a little high temp grease/graphite).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:03 am

Ok here is the fire pot and it seems to have a bit of a bow in the center on one side.
The secondary air holes are sort of various sizes as someone less talented than the guys in your shop must have attempted the modification. They vary from 1/4 to 5 /16 .
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ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: dcrane On: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:25 am

perfect... the pot comes out! :dancing: MAKE sure when you drop it back in the warped side goes to the FRONT of the stove and your good for 10 more years :punk:

the secondary air holes you can simply drill out the ones close to the front door while its apart if you wish to make them a lil larger (i would have designed it a lil' different but not a big deal).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:42 am

Getting the flash off the grate parts is no problem as I have tons of grinding equipment, hard abrasive rolls etc.

I have seen the washers you are talking about, the local lumberyard might even sell them. They are used on a lot of older automotive trim parts. I have a ton of lubri-plate graphite grease and will have to look at the temperature rating. The ash pan door must of had pins as they literally fell oy the bottom with a little heat.

I have tons of very good taps dies drills reamers etc. as I am a machinist as well as engineer so not really worried about the holes as much as the weld. The tab on the stove does look a bit fragile to be candid. Had it been me I would of had a tab on top and bottom with a brass push pin so it could not rust together in the first place. As a plus it would have been 4 times stronger for very little effort. Saying that I do realize 99% of all wood and coal stoves are built the same as the hinge on the 404.

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ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:29 pm

Ok my next found issue that I hope is not an issue. The Dura vent chimney, it is triple wall stainless, has the crimped end of the pipe going to the stove rather than away. The stove has the crimp going away and pointing to the chimney. I am planning on putting a straight section with no crimp to make an adapter. I hope this will be ok as an easy fix.

My next concern is draft. My stack pipe is 1`1 ft from beginning to end. I am going to search for my seldom used since 1974 oil burner tune up tools. I will measure the current draft at various flue temperatures and hope it will pull at least 0.03 at low temps.

I was able to get the seized screws and door pins out other than the two welded ones that need to be ground and drilled I will see if I can do those over the weekend. The seized ones were not too hard to do. 3 times with heat and light tapping, patience pays off in the end. I have 1/2 gasket but every web site that promised graphite had none when I got there so the white stuff like I pulled out. Have glass paint and had red RTV on hand already. I can do some grinding on Sunday on the grates and fire pot.

Dcrane I think I found the window gasket material you mentioned that is approximately 1/2 in diameter but does not look much thicker than 1/16 think and measured what I took out and it is double that. Can I just use 2 layers with maybe a skim coat of RTV between them so they do not shift? Is 1/16 thick enough?

How much do I need to stretch the 1/2 gasket? what I took out looks like no more than 50% of the 1/2 inch.

If I have not said will say so now, yes the forum has been a great source of info. Wish me luck on the chimney draft test tonight!
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:09 am

the window gasket should not have a "diameter" (about 7/8ths" wide and flat!)... it has a "channel" so to speak in the middle of the flat that the edges of the glass rest in.

welding brass to steel is not happening unless you weld for a living (tig weld) and even then it would never be as strong as like materials (the filler would be some obscure bronze rod in attempt to make the mate between steel and brass).... no...just no.

The main weld on the corroded tab is on the underside (this is where i would have buried the weld deep and hot across the small length of that tab) doing this on the top side was not possible without getting "door ride up on the weld itself" (they were mig welded).... so though i agree that tab looks bad check the underside of it for strength (maybe just cleaning it up or worst case adding some weld).

the 1/2 inch door gasket only needs to be stretched enough to push it into the gasket slot on the stove. your ahead of the curve already because 90% of the folks who have cranes are unaware to use this forum... they use 3/8th gasket because thats what the slot measures and that is WRONG, it will not last or be as dense as the more proper 1/2" that is supposed to be used. (dont worry about the white gasket... it only means it wont last as long, it will work fine.

which end do crimped flu pipe go towards :idea: ... a common question here and very searchable using the search feature upper right corner of page. with a coal stove we like to see the crimps face the chimney (not the stove), with wood stoves its the opposite (for reasons you can review, it would take to long to explain here)... between you and me it really does not matter with regards to you since your a coal burner (either will work).... but again....if you have a choice, chose crimps facing chimney all the way out ;)

its great to hear that your biggest hurdle here (the door hinges) are right up your alley and im sure you will be OK. If you do indeed have a welding machine and think you want to replace the tabs on the stove than simply get some steel barstock approx 1/2" x 1/4" and make some new tabs with that, you will grind down the existing tabs nice leaving only the contour of the stove edge, you will lay the stove on its back and take the doors (with NO gasket installed on them!), lay the doors on the stove center them to the openings, place a NO MORE than 1/8th" spacer on the hinge side and then place your new hinge tabs with pins into the door and make sure you can turn them all the way up (door open), and all the way down touching stove (door closed) .... now weld them bitches in place as she sits (remember, you cant weld the top portion well, so make damb sure your getting that underside GOOD!)

ok... your off and running! good luck with draft (im not sure how your going to judge draft to accurately without heat :cry: )... ill let some other weight in on that stuff who are more knowledgeable with mano installs and draft readings.

P.S. while you have the doors off and apart take a nice (non-aggressive grinder), flexable 80 grit Norton or whatever and lightly grind nice and smooth the inside face of the door (along the gasket slots) to remove ANY possible casting "boogers" or rough bumps. this should take a brief minute and makes for super quality that sometimes gets lost in mass production ;)
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:33 pm

I found some flat gasket like you describe though did not see a channel. It was wound in a roll so maybe on the inside.. Checking draft is easy once I find the small tool box with all that stuff in it. There is a wood stove connected to the flue that is getting replaced as it is sold but running right now. There is a surface thermometer as well as a probe to measure internal temps. The surface one is interesting but meaningless. The fire can quickly go to 1000 F on a startup and the surface one is at 200 F.

I was thinking about adding an upper bracket bolted on and using a brass bolt not welding brass to steel.
Thanks for tip on the spacer, I was wondering how much I needed to space away and was the next question to be honest.

I have had poor luck searching forums in general maybe need to get better at refining search words. I was not going to stress over the crimp on the pipe and deal with getting it right in the summer. To be honest I would not even consider burning coal without this forum to coach me and bounce ideas off of.

I had planned on dressing all edges with a large mill file so I only take to nubs and no more.

My last thing to solve is the shaker handle or lack of one. If you have one PM me a price with shipping to 06355 and will send an address. If not I will have to make one.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:41 pm

Nice to see another one being brought back to a Heat-Filled Life ! Carry On, DD! :clap:
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
Coal Size/Type: Rice-A-Roni !

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:43 pm

Hambden Bob wrote:Nice to see another one being brought back to a Heat-Filled Life ! Carry On, DD! :clap:


Trying my best! I need heat so not doing this when bored if you know what I mean. I am trying to document as much as possible along with pics of all the parts so someone knows if they are looking at a complete stove when buying.
Here is a picture of the baffle and grate end caps that meet with the bottom of the firepot.
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ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:48 pm

baffle looks good, now somehow take as i said and fill in either edge down low (about 1.5-2" worth)... i dont care what you block it with (weld a piece or jamb some steel in their enough to keep coal from getting behind it so you can "bank" the *censored* out it (this will provide much longer burn times for you and you wont have to worry about to much coal finding its way into the flu pipe like me toothy ), its the first thing im going to do when i shut down (which i never happens with me LOL).

handle is $20, I can take a photo of it (replacement shaker handle is simply steel tubing bent to 90 on either end (so when one end wears out you flip and have the other end to use).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: dcrane On: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:42 am

here is a photo of the replacement shaker handle of a 404, its simply a 3/4 x 3/4 steel tubing bent at either end (18" long prior to bending) , i personally would have the bends more like an 80 degree bend to allow for handle to be slightly farther away from top door handle when shaking. i also would like to see a slight thicker gauge wall used (but not to thick, you never want that stop shaft to brake prior to the handle failing)... 1/16 inch wall thickness would be ideal (im just not sure if that can be bought as "common" 3/4x3/4 tubing).

I have some left overs (they may have slight surface rust so need a quick steel wool and spray of paint). or you can use these photo's and info to have a couple made.

P.S... the lower two photos are of an original 404 shaker handle with wooden knob to match door handles.
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dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Restoring my new to me 404

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:09 am

I played with drilling the tabs to remove the broken door ins and it seems impossible to get a straight shot at them with a pretty normal 3/8 hand drill. The body hits the stove side and does not allow a straight shot at it. I am up for ideas short of welding that will be costly no matter how it is done. At the end of the day I am running out of money so need a creative solution.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404