When it's too cold....

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:16 am

My oil furnace has a fiber duct plenum. When I put my hot water to hot air heat exchanger in, I cut the side of the plenum out, set the hot water coil on top of the existing heat pump A coil using a length of 1 inch copper pipe as a spacer between the two coils. I then used metal strap to secure the hotwater coil. Essentially hanging it from the floor joists above but supported by and balanced on the existing A coil. Sealed the fiber ducting up with metal tape. Didn't take any photos, however. Has worked great so far, even in this brutally cold winter
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: dave brode On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:15 pm

Kungur wrote:Well this cold weather has really caused me to re-consider the original idea of a "split system". Having the ability of switching from the radiant floor heating to a water to air heat exchanger in the gas forced air furnace. The prices don't seem to unreasonable for the exchanger, but would like some info.
I would like to hear from those of you that have a water to air heat exchanger, info on how you installed it in the plenum, etc.. And pics would be great!
Thanks!


Kungur,

My house's living space is 1700 sq ft. The house has an air/air heatpump, compressor is locked out when Kaa-2 boiler is running. the house ductwork has a 30x15" coil. The apx 1400 sq ft basement is heated with a homemade fan/coil unit with a 12 x 12" hot water coil.

These pics may help. The cabinet looking thing is the homemade basement fan/coil unit. Tin box, old squirrel cage from a house furnace, coil in top, filter rack in bottom. there is ductowork connected to the outlet now, serves basement only. The pic of the house duct coil isn't great, but you can see that it's between the air handler and the tee in the duct.

Dave
p.s. - the nice thing about air over water is, you can humidify the air. you can see the humidifier hanging under the duct trunk line.
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dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: used to have a 5 section Red Square
Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: dave brode On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:29 pm

p.s. -

I'm thinking of doing the opposite, and I would end up with what you would have, more or less.

Our living/dining areas have a large amount of windows. It sounds odd, but in single digit temps, even though it might be 73 in there, it almost seems as though you can still feel the cold radiating through the glass. I thought of either a big ole iron radiator or two, or maybe run some radiant under the floor in that open end of the house.

Dave
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: used to have a 5 section Red Square
Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:42 pm

Not being a "fan" of scorched air .....

Some of the propaganda that I recommend we study -- outlines a very simple way to build a temperature reducing loop. I build them WITHOUT using thermo reacting valves because they fail. You can add/build as many temperature reducing loops as nessasary to fit the needs of your system. So if you have an indirect DHW storage tank - you can send it full boiler temperature energy bearing flow - you can build a loop to send slightly less energy to the baseboard -and you can build a loop that significantly reduces the energy sent to the infloor.

There - now you can balance the system and have a comfortable house

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Horace On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:06 pm

dave brode wrote:Our living/dining areas have a large amount of windows. It sounds odd, but in single digit temps, even though it might be 73 in there, it almost seems as though you can still feel the cold radiating through the glass. I thought of either a big ole iron radiator or two, or maybe run some radiant under the floor in that open end of the house.

Dave


Try this stuff:
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When it was -4 and the wind was howling, I put these over three side-by-side windows in my living room. The difference was instant and astronomical. A little ugly, and if the windows leak a bit in the wind it crinkles, but it really helps.
Horace
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman ST8-VF8 / Frankenstove

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:15 pm

Short Bus wrote:Is your KA-2 running full time?


?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Kungur On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:57 pm

Yes, it seems when it is this cold it is running constantly.
Dave, my plenum is only 14x20 so I am limited as to the size heat exchanger I can use.
Thanks for your replies!
Kungur
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: K-2

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:18 pm

The size of you plenum is not all that critical as this would only supplement your radiant heat,not replace it, But,Sting has a good idea,more costly than mine.but actually better in the long run as it will increase the gallons of heated water in the system & increase the heating system mass ,as in the extra pipes,extra baseboard,etc. Hot water heat as a radiant heat whether its infloor or baseboard/radiators is more comfortable feeling than hot air heat,but more upfront cost.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Coalfire On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:15 pm

Kungur wrote:Yes, it seems when it is this cold it is running constantly.




If its running constantly are you sure you are making enough hot water for all your loops?



Eric
Coalfire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 96K btu Circulator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: dave brode On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:42 pm

Horace wrote:
dave brode wrote:Our living/dining areas have a large amount of windows. It sounds odd, but in single digit temps, even though it might be 73 in there, it almost seems as though you can still feel the cold radiating through the glass. I thought of either a big ole iron radiator or two, or maybe run some radiant under the floor in that open end of the house.

Dave


Try this stuff:
077578022598lg.jpg

When it was -4 and the wind was howling, I put these over three side-by-side windows in my living room. The difference was instant and astronomical. A little ugly, and if the windows leak a bit in the wind it crinkles, but it really helps.


I appreciate that, but it's not air leaks. I said through, maybe I should have said from. It's just that a glass window [no matter how good] is not like having a well insulated 2/6 wall between you and the outside. LOL.

Thanks. My Mom-In-Law's house could use that stuff.
Dave
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: used to have a 5 section Red Square
Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: dave brode On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:45 pm

Kungur wrote:Yes, it seems when it is this cold it is running constantly.
Dave, my plenum is only 14x20 so I am limited as to the size heat exchanger I can use.
Thanks for your replies!


You might be surprised on how much heat my basement fan/coil unit makes with just a 12 x 12" coil. The 30x15 in the house duct is way overkill.

Dave
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: used to have a 5 section Red Square
Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Lu47Dan On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:06 pm

One of the things I noticed in most residential systems is a supply thermometer and a return thermometer. If you do not know for sure what those temperatures are than it is a guessing game as to what the next step should be.
I have a set of temperature probes on both my oil fired boilers. I can check both temperatures quickly if I have a problem.
One thing that might be happening is that the water is flowing through the system at too high a velocity, the water or fluid most have the time to transfer the heat it is holding. If flowing too fast you are returning the heat to the boiler, if it flows too slowly it can actually drag the heat out the floor.
Adding some fin tube can help as supplemental heat for those real cold days. With radiant floors the perimeter of the floor should be insulated so that the cold outside can not wick the heat out of the floor. I saw that in one of my neighbors houses, when he resided the house he added insulation to the outside of the house. The radiant floor in the family room performs much better than before.
The floor joists did not have insulation in the ends to prevent the heat from radiating out through them.
Dan.
Lu47Dan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:08 am

Having a "split" or dual system is a great idea - you then have the ability to provide central AC in the warm months - you can quickly scorch a little air to take the chill off in the spring and fall "shoulder" months.

As I have been berated in the past for suggesting that the wet system could be undersized as [again in this case] the air scorcher could pick up the last end of the load on very cold nights -- I would not do this unless the jump between available wet appliances warrant the smaller unit vs the larger.

Once in the "heating" season, leave the air scorcher off - and enjoy the warm and economical comfort of Hydroponic heating

now = Ill post a caveat to above = if the house is built like a corn crib - it will be dry in the winter and an air scorcher is a great way to introduce a full spread of "conditioned" air to help keep the humidity in the swelling dwelling - you know - so that the cat doesn't turn into a dynamo. Anyway as a testimonial ill write that these new steam injection kits that install on the side and fit an injector in the main trunk [plenum] are great!

It depends!
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:52 pm

Kungur wrote:Yes, it seems when it is this cold it is running constantly.
Dave, my plenum is only 14x20 so I am limited as to the size heat exchanger I can use.
Thanks for your replies!


If the boiler already has its hands full with the radiant, I'm not sure adding a water/air heat exchanger to the mix will produce the results you are looking for.

Lu47Dan wrote:One of the things I noticed in most residential systems is a supply thermometer and a return thermometer. If you do not know for sure what those temperatures are than it is a guessing game as to what the next step should be.
I have a set of temperature probes on both my oil fired boilers. I can check both temperatures quickly if I have a problem.
One thing that might be happening is that the water is flowing through the system at too high a velocity, the water or fluid most have the time to transfer the heat it is holding. If flowing too fast you are returning the heat to the boiler, if it flows too slowly it can actually drag the heat out the floor.
Adding some fin tube can help as supplemental heat for those real cold days. With radiant floors the perimeter of the floor should be insulated so that the cold outside can not wick the heat out of the floor. I saw that in one of my neighbors houses, when he resided the house he added insulation to the outside of the house. The radiant floor in the family room performs much better than before.
The floor joists did not have insulation in the ends to prevent the heat from radiating out through them.
Dan.


Lots of good advice from Dan...do some homework while the system is working hard and find out where the heat is going.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: When it's too cold....

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:42 pm

Good catch Rob R. seems we all missed the part about it running constantly,hard to fix that with more radiation.! So, its either up size the unit or use the backup heat when outdoor temps drop to brutal.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Visit Lehigh Anthracite