Advice on warping

Advice on warping

PostBy: yermanjf On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:20 pm

I have a Franco belge 10,275 pea coalstove. I bought it 5 years ago used and never had a problem with it before. I in the spring I clean the manifold that carries the hot gas to the flu by snaking a tube into it. This works and is efficient but it means I haven't inspected the stove for a couple of years. Nor do I open. The inspection/clean out doors.

I shut it down as we were out of town for new years eve. Before i fired it up again i decided to give the insides a look and I removed the cover (for the first time in a couple of years). I found the clean out doors on the got gas manifold (it runs along each side and then across the back) barely attached. They were hanging there with gaps visible. It it a testament to the design that the stove would run that way. It also implies there was a lot of air going into the exhaust before the damper.

I inspected more carefully (lesson learned this should be done annually) and found the root cause to be that the manifold for hot gas across the back has warped significantly . I also found crack in the front plate and in the manifold on the side of the stove.

I had been running the thermostat on number 8 of 9 for a month. It was consuming 3.5 to 4 15 pound buckets of coal daily. I have the damper is set as light as possible and it pulls a lot of air. The ash generated is very low. The thermometer on the top of the stove never goes above 350 F.

Does this sound like I overheated it by running it at 8 for that long? Or do stoves just warp over time?


Also does anyone have a good recommendation for a replacement? We like hopper fed parlor style stoves as this is our second heat source.

John y.

One addition. I got 5 years out of the The sacrificial back plate, hopper feed and grates that are in there now.
yermanjf
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Franco belge
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Other Heating: Oil hot water
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco Belge
Stove/Furnace Model: not sure

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:32 pm

never going over 350 degree surface temp typically does not indicate over firing anything! BUT... surface temp is very different per stove (some stoves have a triple wall top, heat shroud, etc. to allow for blower air to come across the top and to get THAT stoves surface temp to 350 may indicate the true surface temp is riding 600+), some photo's of the stove and internal parts would sure allow your post to be addressed with more insight and assistance if your able?
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: rustyrelics On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:54 pm

yermanjf wrote:I have a Franco belge 10,275 pea coalstove. I bought it 5 years ago used and never had a problem with it before. I in the spring I clean the manifold that carries the hot gas to the flu by snaking a tube into it. This works and is efficient but it means I haven't inspected the stove for a couple of years. Nor do I open. The inspection/clean out doors.

I shut it down as we were out of town for new years eve. Before i fired it up again i decided to give the insides a look and I removed the cover (for the first time in a couple of years). I found the clean out doors on the got gas manifold (it runs along each side and then across the back) barely attached. They were hanging there with gaps visible. It it a testament to the design that the stove would run that way. It also implies there was a lot of air going into the exhaust before the damper.

I inspected more carefully (lesson learned this should be done annually) and found the root cause to be that the manifold for hot gas across the back has warped significantly . I also found crack in the front plate and in the manifold on the side of the stove.

I had been running the thermostat on number 8 of 9 for a month. It was consuming 3.5 to 4 15 pound buckets of coal daily. I have the damper is set as light as possible and it pulls a lot of air. The ash generated is very low. The thermometer on the top of the stove never goes above 350 F.

Does this sound like I overheated it by running it at 8 for that long? Or do stoves just warp over time?


Also does anyone have a good recommendation for a replacement? We like hopper fed parlor style stoves as this is our second heat source.

John y.

One addition. I got 5 years out of the The sacrificial back plate, hopper feed and grates that are in there now.



thin stoves warp over time. good stoves are made of 1/4" plate or thicker throughout. that's why they cost $2000 for an entry level one built that way, like a Harman. cheaper stoves use a lot of thin sheet metal, with thick pieces to frame the bricks and grates. the thin sides on those will warp, inevitable. 350 F. is not too hot, actually just barely idling along. your kitchen oven gets hotter than that inside and its sheetmetal too. in the old days coal stoves were cast iron because that's what was cheapest to use at that time. now steel plate is cheaper than cast.
rustyrelics
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Scranton Stove Works base heater
Other Heating: Franklin wood stove

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Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: Wanna Bee On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:28 pm

Welcome back coal cracker!
Wanna Bee
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Grander Stove Co.
Stove/Furnace Model: Royal Bride

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: Wheelo On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:24 pm

My very used and abused 1537 hotblast is so warped most people on here would consider hauling it in for scrap! I didn't do it, the previous owner of the house did it. But as of this moment, it's steadily humming along, as it has been for months now. Personally, in my own rookie experience, as long as it's not cracked, the doors close tightly, and it's still airtight, I'd keep on running it till it died! Then either revive it, or replace it. But then again, I'm broke, poor, and don't believe in spending money, according to my fiancé I even squeak when I walk.... But I'm no professional and I'm sure many more people who are much more experienced will chime in.
Wheelo
Wheelo
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: 1537 US Stove
Coal Size/Type: Bit
Other Heating: Propane

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: dcrane On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:39 pm

ohhh dear lord... a few corrections once again...

#1 back in the day stoves were made of steel as well as cast iron. #2 ive seen the thinnest imaginable steel combustion chambers/barrels burn coal for 150 years without warping so lets not paint with such a broad brush #3 many people would say a stove made with 1/4 inch steel COMBINED with BIG THICK COMMON firebrick (not even cemented/sealed to the outer walls of the stove) is just not intelligent for a radiant coal stove (key word "Radiate"!)... your heat is held in by big thick crap square brick because its cheap to make by the millions, then you have slight gaps inbetween, behind, etc. that serve as additional insulator from "radiant", then outside that protection barrier from "radiant" heat you place 1/4 inch thick steel, then ontop of that cluster *censored* they decide to take the one area that has "hope" of true efficient "radiant" heat and cover the whole dang thing with layers of steel to provide for a blower port that wave tensely little tassels on a showroom floor instead of spending the proper and better money to use interior heat tubes like a Chubby that gets hotter air out as well as still allows the radiant heat to expel off the top plate. (OK... that was merely a devils advocate response CC :clap: I do like Harmon mark series im just trying to show you both sides of the coin bro ;) )
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: warminmn On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:11 pm

yerman, dont pay attention to rusty. He is apparently a bored Harman stove salesman. They arent selling many stoves these days so have plenty of time to spam us.

I wont knock the harman mark series (never had one but read a lot of good things) but they dont have a hopper like you mentioned and are overpriced new. Check out the USA made Hitzer (my Dad has one but not hopper) and DS Machine products(never had one) with hoppers, or an old base burner(never had one) and you will probably be happy. Or stick with a Euro made hopper stove if you want. if you decide you dont need a hopper it really opens the door, but you mentioned wanting a hopper.
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: ShawninNY On: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:20 pm

Sorry about the warping! Are your warped parts cast or plate? Are they integral to sealing flue gases in the stove or are they part of a baffle system to absorb and radiate heat? Like dcrane said post some pics if you can
ShawninNY
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Waterford/penn royal in garage
Stove/Furnace Model: 1994 Erin

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: rustyrelics On: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:13 am

here's the Riteway made of thin steel, notice the warping. if this was 1/4" it would not warp like this. pictures speak louder than words. long term a thin stove will warp. I have seen this many times before. when buying a stove check the thickness of the plate. thicker is better. it will be heavy and harder to move around but more durable.

Image

Image

here is some advice from ehow, it talks about wood stoves but same applies to coal stoves for plate thickness

http://www.ehow.com/how_110299_buy-wood-stove.html


4
Understand the technology in catalytic stoves ($1,000 to $2,000). A catalytic combustor cuts normal burn temperatures in half for a slow, controlled fire with the fewest emissions. Look for a castiron or plate-steel stove body 1/4 inch (6 mm) thick and a tightclosing bypass plate 5/16 inch (8 mm) thick. Also look for a design that protects the combustor from direct flame.

5
Consider noncatalytic (recirculating) stoves ($500 to $2,200) for their two-chamber combustion, which injects jets of preheated air into the fire to boost heat and reduce emissions. Look for a cast-iron or plate-steel body 1/4 inch (6 mm) thick. To resist warping, the fire chamber's baffle should be 5/16-inch (8 mm) plate steel with V-shaped supports. These models have no combustor to maintain, but their smaller fireboxes mean you'll have to use shorter logs and load them more frequently.
rustyrelics
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Scranton Stove Works base heater
Other Heating: Franklin wood stove

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: warminmn On: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:57 am

Like I said, a bored salesman. He should probably start carrying other lines of quality stoves in his store.

There are advantages of thick steel over thin and visa versa, whether coal or wood. Dcrane covered some of that. No stove is the best for every situation.
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: dcrane On: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:27 am

It is true that square boxes are not as strong as cylindrical circles (whats that old adage... "an Egg or Igloo is the strongest form of construction")... most engineers would tell you that circles, ovals, eggs, domes would be "the best", "the strongest" of which Harman has NONE because its a lot cheaper to build with flat, square, rectangular... their is a reason why the steel barrels of 100's of types of parlor stoves have burned 150 years without warping (and they are over 50% thinner than the riteway even!!!)...so lets not assume simply because a stove has less than 1/4 inch steel plate it will warp in time (its proven and time tested over 150 years that the thickness/thinness of the steel in the construction is NOT the only factor that dictates if warping will or wont occur), matter of fact is probably one of the least important factors (I could make a Harman warp very easy by over-firing the hell out of it (1/4 inch plate or not!), i can think of many other stoves i could not do that with or would require serious modding to make happen.

as Warmin says... lots of benefits, options, advantages and dis advantages on both sides of the coin in terms of longevity, strength, shape, construction, ability to radiate the heat into living space, esthetics, etc... dont assume 1/4 steel is better just because its thicker (thats coming from me...someone who built 1/4 steel stoves for a living LOL).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Advice on warping

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:09 am

As Doug said, it's shape more than thickness that matters. Many of the early barrel stoves like my Glenwood Oak have a sheet metal barrel with a cast iron front bolted to it. The grates on it were burned out, but there is ZERO distortion in the sheet metal barrel above the 18 inch diameter firebox.

Modern kitchen stove ovens were mentioned. For over 25 years that I've had them, modern, self-cleaning gas ovens can get up around 700 F on the cleaning cycle. Guess what, they're all sheet metal with fiberglass sandwiched in between. But they have stiffening ribs stamped into them to prevent warping.

Shape, not thickness. ;)

One other correction. It's always been more expensive to build a stove out of cast iron than from sheet steel or plate steel. Inexpensive, mass produced sheet metal and plate has been around as long as these old coal stoves we're talking about and so has electric and gas welding.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

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