Thinking of forced air furnace

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:58 pm

beemerboy wrote:I just got a price on propane.

As of today, if I rent the tank it would be $3.19 and if I own tank $2.78.

A 100 gallon tank and regulator will cost $680 and a $99 installation fee. With a $0.41/gal it would take 1900 gallons payback or about 4 years.

Propane is about a dollar a gallon less than oil.

I'm going to look for other prices on the tank.

More later


as was mentioned, use fuel cost calculator on this site, you need to compare $$ per btu, not $$ per gallon; I could sell you a gallon of dogshit to heat your house for $1.50 per, but it won't have the energy of heating oil. Propane is around 87,000btu/gallon, heating oil - 140,000. In addition, you can pretty much count on propane being more $$ per btu delivered year over year than heating oil - even w/ a high efficiency condensing propane furnace.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:06 pm

even w/ a high efficiency condensing propane furnace.


Which often freeze up in extreme weather. There is no substitute for brute power in a coal stove or a tractor. Not so great in a woman.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: cabinover On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:30 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:At current pricing in central Pa. electric heat would be cheapest + 100% efficient, if choosing between oil & propain, oil burns but propain can go :blowup:


The last thing I would worry about is the LP blowing up.

Beemer, you're not gonna heat much for long with a single 120 gallon Q-tank. I don't think it would make enough vapor when it gets cold to feed a decent sized furnace. You'll need a minimum of two.

Last time I saw the $$ on a 1,000 gallon underground tank it was in the neighborhood of $1800.00 I believe but it depends on who you are of course.

And like others have said, you'll constantly be having a single 420#/120 gallon filled as the max liquid capacity is only 96 gallons.
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.


Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: beemerboy On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:22 pm

titleist1 wrote:
beemerboy wrote:I just got a price on propane.

As of today, if I rent the tank it would be $3.19 and if I own tank $2.78.


Call around to different suppliers as well. I do this routinely for the church tanks and price/gal varies a lot from dealer to dealer. The guy we used to lease the tanks from is much higher than the supplier we generally go with. Last I called in Aug/Sept low price was I think $1.97 (under $2 for sure) and his price was around $2.75. Those are 1k gallon tanks so the price diff may be greater than for a 100 gal tank.


Like the song says, I've only just began. I figure that if I own my own tank I may be able to negotiate price better.
beemerboy
 
Stove/Furnace Make: SAEY
Stove/Furnace Model: Hannover 1

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:10 pm

cabinover wrote:
windyhill4.2 wrote:At current pricing in central Pa. electric heat would be cheapest + 100% efficient, if choosing between oil & propain, oil burns but propain can go :blowup:


The last thing I would worry about is the LP blowing up.

Beemer, you're not gonna heat much for long with a single 120 gallon Q-tank. I don't think it would make enough vapor when it gets cold to feed a decent sized furnace. You'll need a minimum of two.

Last time I saw the $$ on a 1,000 gallon underground tank it was in the neighborhood of $1800.00 I believe but it depends on who you are of course.

And like others have said, you'll constantly be having a single 420#/120 gallon filled as the max liquid capacity is only 96 gallons.


That's another thing to seriously consider if you're going to be putting in your own small tanks: when it gets really cold there's always a number of people with the white whales that can't get heat because they undersized the tank, cooled it too fast with the furnace demand and lost vapor pressure when they needed it most.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:31 pm

Well,just throwing in my thoughts on your plight. I know that you've already got some Health Problems. I don't think you need any more. You know,the kind that would be caused by being Cold,or stress when wind/thunder and-or ice storms hit your area. For a Man in your shoes,you need electricity to run whatever you use if you shift out of Coal. A small Generator can give you power for some lights,and a Propane or Oil Furnace. Are you on a well? You could probably use some water too. Based on that,the size of Generator you'd need if you did Electric Heating would be out of reach. The reliability of your lights staying on in times of terrible weather,and Your Health Needs,would tend to force you toward Oil or Propane. I hate either of those choices,but from a Logistics,Tactical and Practical Needs and Priority Standpoint,that's it from me. Unless you have the scratch available to hire someone to help you with Coal Burning Chores,and compare that to the cost outlay to go Oil or Propane,you're at one hell of a decision. I wish you well,and I mean that Sincerely ! :yes:
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
Coal Size/Type: Rice-A-Roni !

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: beemerboy On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:43 am

Hambden Bob wrote:Well,just throwing in my thoughts on your plight. I know that you've already got some Health Problems. I don't think you need any more. You know,the kind that would be caused by being Cold,or stress when wind/thunder and-or ice storms hit your area. For a Man in your shoes,you need electricity to run whatever you use if you shift out of Coal. A small Generator can give you power for some lights,and a Propane or Oil Furnace. Are you on a well? You could probably use some water too. Based on that,the size of Generator you'd need if you did Electric Heating would be out of reach. The reliability of your lights staying on in times of terrible weather,and Your Health Needs,would tend to force you toward Oil or Propane. I hate either of those choices,but from a Logistics,Tactical and Practical Needs and Priority Standpoint,that's it from me. Unless you have the scratch available to hire someone to help you with Coal Burning Chores,and compare that to the cost outlay to go Oil or Propane,you're at one hell of a decision. I wish you well,and I mean that Sincerely ! :yes:

I do have a small honda gennie and I won't give up burning coal entirely. So at least keeping the house from freezing is not a problem. I share a well with my mom's house. the pump is a jet pump in her basement wired 120 so that is not a problem either.

One of the immediate considerations is if I have to go to the hospital again for another week. If it's during the winter, I won't have to worry about the pipes freezing because there is no one to care for the stove. I figure I could use the coal as supplemental heat rather than primary. Believe me when I say I would rather burn coal.

Another consideration is If I ever decide to move over to my mom's house and rent out mine (the house used to be a rental), I would need a heating system that can be operated by your average moron and not worry about them burning the house down.

I'm probably wrong but I figure the cost to install the furnace and get it running should be about four grand or less. So that's do able. For cooking I have a Coleman camping stove and lights are a lantern.

One of my neighbors burns propane. They live in an apartment in a poorly insulated old farmhouse. The apartment is about the same size as my house ( my house is 800 sq ft.). They have one 100 gallon tank that gets filled about once a month - five weeks during this cold weather. As far as the gas line freezing up wouldn't that also be a function of the size of the fuel line?

If I find one tank is not enough maybe I could add a second one at a later date. I don't now if it could be done that way...
beemerboy
 
Stove/Furnace Make: SAEY
Stove/Furnace Model: Hannover 1

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Berlin On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:01 am

I'm still not entirely sure why you think propane is your best choice?

Cost of operation? oil wins
Cost of appliance/installation? (oil wins by a big margin if you look on craigslist for an oil furnace someone's selling cheap because NG became available to them - there are TONS of them out there for low prices in excellent condition)
Simplicity? oil wins.
Cost of maintenance? oil wins.

I really have no dog in this fight, it's just been my experience that propane is a terrible alternative to heating oil for the consumer. The only real upside is less annual maintenance - which - in a properly operating appliance consists of changing out a $4.00 nozzle and a $4 filter and about 20 min. of your time; if its running properly a forced air furnace shouldn't even need to be brushed/vacuumed out more than once/5yrs. and that's pretty diy and may take an hour or two start to finish.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: SMITTY On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:07 am

Yep - I'm with Berlin on this. I have lots of oil experience - the equipment typically lasts forever, is easy to troubleshoot, and the fuel cannot blow you up in the middle of the night because you forgot to tighten a line ... ;)

Everyone I know that burns propane tells me how EXPENSIVE it is, and how much fuel they go through in such a short time. Some have had ignition problems on the newer units that are impossible to figure out, because, of course, they're all electronic now. Getting a service guy over on the coldest night of the year is VERY pricey ... have to factor that in too. The oil burner can be fixed with an adjustable wrench and a screwdriver in most cases. I like simplicity. Ours is 95% original from '96. Only part I replaced was the electric eye. Granted we've burned coal for the past 8 years, but that thing has short-cycled more than it should over the years. I'm shocked more hasn't failed - seriously!
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:08 am

SMITTY wrote: Getting a service guy over on the coldest night of the year is VERY pricey


The holds true regardless of the fuel source...but in areas like mine there are more guys that service oil burners than gas.

Can't fit an oil tank through the door? How about a 125 gallon tank? I have seen some houses with two 125 gallon tanks due to a tight entry way.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Freddy On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:19 am

I have a 128 gallon oil tank in my garage. I got it because it fits under a work bench. The reason they make a 128 is for places that a 275 won't fit. They cost more, but if you need 'em, you need 'em.

Owning your own propane tank.... don't forget they need to be inspected once every 12 years. In this area that means uproot them, take them in, have them inspected and return them to duty.

It's not that propane lines freeze up, it's that propane is a liquid & must evaporate into a gas before it can be used. The surface area of the top of the tank and the temperature control how fast evaporation occurs. At low temps if you don't have "enough tank" you run out of fuel, (even though you have fuel, you can not access it) The size of the line has nothing to do with it. Line size goes by how many BTU's you appliance uses.

Gosh.... I guess...if I had to this road to walk, I'd use oil fired and install an automatic back up generator. Maybe run THAT on propane as it needs little fuel maintenance. I've been going in circles myself. I want a back up generator. I like diesel as it's fuel stingy, but, they don't like to start when it's cold and the fuel is a headache to maintain.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:37 am

Here is a website that provides some price survey data between the two fuels. It may help with your comparison.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_smd_w.htm
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: HeatTech On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:11 pm

I would use a propane or natural gas Generator only.
HeatTech
 

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:37 pm

Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Thinking of forced air furnace

PostBy: mahanoydan On: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:25 am

you could get a heat exchanger fed by forced hot water or antifreeze for your forced hot air ductwork, which can be fired by whatever fuel choice you decide, this is the way I would go. I used to have propane in the past it did not seem as bad as people say but either way your gonna pay a lot more than coal. good luck. parlor stove type burning pellets is a nice zone heater for the room you use most for comfort...
mahanoydan
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: n/a
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: n/a
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: yukon polar coal/wood with oil fired backup
Hand Fed Coal Stove: fatso parlor type,,loove that little fella
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: keystoker hearth,
Other Heating: vermont casting defiant, oilfired forced hot water