WL 110 Questions

WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:42 am

Dave/Matt,

Could you review the procedures used to establish the btuh output for the WL110? I'm back calculating my heat loss, and would like to figure out how I'm going to go about squeezing more efficiency out of this system.

I recall that with coal this unit operates at 90% or so efficiency, what outlet temp is that based on? Does the efficiency change based on outlet temp? Is the calculation used factoring in the ash content (averaged) for the coal, or is that an additional loss that has to be calculated?

Is the stoker motor at max feed rate the max btuh? Or is there some kentucky windage built into it to account for different quality of coal (which I would expect)?

And some general questions for the board, when getting BTUH ratings for radiators which are based on water temperature, is that generally considered the temp of the water leaving the boiler or reaching the radiator? Any guides to what the heat loss per foot of pex would be?
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: McGiever On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:30 pm

Heat loss is a Fixed value...although there are many ways to have it calculated.
Efficiency on the other hand, has many,many variables and can and does always change. :|

What are trying to accomplish?
Use lesser amount of coal and get the same amount of heat?
Or get more heat and use the same amount of coal?

It is not clear to me what you are after. :)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:56 pm

McGiever wrote:Heat loss is a Fixed value...although there are many ways to have it calculated.
Efficiency on the other hand, has many,many variables and can and does always change. :|

What are trying to accomplish?
Use lesser amount of coal and get the same amount of heat?
Or get more heat and use the same amount of coal?

It is not clear to me what you are after. :)



Well, that's a good question.

I stalled out at about 70f inside temp during this cold snap. There are some obvious changes I can make to the system to improve the efficiency, however when I was reviewing the observed data, I started trying to figure out what the max output should be and how that was calculated and realized that I had no idea how to figure that out.

Which lead to the questions I posted above.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:13 pm

You have the 65cfm blower now? You can identify it by having a damper plate on the inlet side.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:19 pm

Flyer5 wrote:You have the 65cfm blower now? You can identify it by having a damper plate on the inlet side.



I'll check that tonight, but I have one of the original units, I think, which had the original blower before you guys started having issues.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: McGiever On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:35 pm

It's always good to think of ways to improve items that bring us better comfort and/or better costs savings. :)

What I will say is that w/ this blip of the mercury downward and then it returning back to the more seasonal expected temps, it is no crisis to be dissappointed w/ the heating falling a little short of expectations.
I say this because this temp we just had is in fact below what most Heat Loss calculators use.
It will likely be some ?decades? till we see it again. In the mean time, maybe just figure a Plan B where you could bring on "supplemental" heat for if/when it hits in the next 30 years. ;)

A nice hand fed would do. :D
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:41 pm

kstills wrote:
Flyer5 wrote:You have the 65cfm blower now? You can identify it by having a damper plate on the inlet side.



I'll check that tonight, but I have one of the original units, I think, which had the original blower before you guys started having issues.



Well there's your problem. Too bad. SOL out the door off my mind. :D




570-752-1811 Dave
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:10 pm

McGiever wrote:It's always good to think of ways to improve items that bring us better comfort and/or better costs savings. :)

What I will say is that w/ this blip of the mercury downward and then it returning back to the more seasonal expected temps, it is no crisis to be dissappointed w/ the heating falling a little short of expectations.
I say this because this temp we just had is in fact below what most Heat Loss calculators use.
It will likely be some ?decades? till we see it again. In the mean time, maybe just figure a Plan B where you could bring on "supplemental" heat for if/when it hits in the next 30 years. ;)

A nice hand fed would do. :D



Well, here's the rub.

I only used ~67k BTUH of coal during that cold snap.

My high limit is set to 160, my low to 145, my radiation capacity is ~70btuh at that temp, so in theory I was almost right on where I should be from a heat in/heat out calculation, however that would assume 100% efficiency of the boiler and no ash content in the coal. Realistically, I would think I would be generating 67kX.9(boiler efficiency)=60.3btuh-9.05btuh(ash content loss) = 51.25btuh.

If I look at a heat loss calculator, that 51.25btuh number at 0 degrees corresponds to a house that is really well insulated. And though mine has been upgraded, I find it hard to believe that it has that degree of insulation in it.

And the other thing is, the water mass never really equilibrated to max temp that the boiler was set for, which is to say the entire system never reached the high limit shut off of the boiler. So I know I wasn't at heating capacity, I just don't know the calculations to figure out where I actually was.

IF that makes any sense at all.... :lol:
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:46 pm

It does make sense.....but the complexities of each install and house are impossible to compute with a simple A+B=C formula. You have to "feel" your system respond or not to cold, wind, different coal, drafts, and many other physical inputs. Having said that you have your temps so low,(to my thinking) and you held at 70* is amazing. How many btu's did you leave on the table by not having your boiler adjusted for max? I knew a plumbing and heating guy that declared,(while we were building his house) that he was going to heat his house with 75 degree water. PIPE DREAM! He had 2x10 walls in the walk out basement. and 2x8 walls in the house, and spray foamed it all....etc. Reality check folks. He had $100 grand in windows that were an R3.5 on a good day. Lets just say he had to increase his supply temp a bit. I am the type that would like to measure and quantify everything. Like Isayre. But everyone has to get a handle on their own home and conditions. IF it ain't working, turn up the coal feed or turn up the water temp. Stop screwing around with "max" efficiency and wondering why it isn't working. How much are you saving when you are burning the cheapest form of heat you will ever see?

Kevin

Of course in the back of my head I can hear Sting raving about only putting out the btu's needed to satisfy the demand.......and something about balance. Well, if it ain't heating, put out more heat!!!!!
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:11 am

KLook wrote:It does make sense.....but the complexities of each install and house are impossible to compute with a simple A+B=C formula. You have to "feel" your system respond or not to cold, wind, different coal, drafts, and many other physical inputs. Having said that you have your temps so low,(to my thinking) and you held at 70* is amazing. How many btu's did you leave on the table by not having your boiler adjusted for max? I knew a plumbing and heating guy that declared,(while we were building his house) that he was going to heat his house with 75 degree water. PIPE DREAM! He had 2x10 walls in the walk out basement. and 2x8 walls in the house, and spray foamed it all....etc. Reality check folks. He had $100 grand in windows that were an R3.5 on a good day. Lets just say he had to increase his supply temp a bit. I am the type that would like to measure and quantify everything. Like Isayre. But everyone has to get a handle on their own home and conditions. IF it ain't working, turn up the coal feed or turn up the water temp. Stop screwing around with "max" efficiency and wondering why it isn't working. How much are you saving when you are burning the cheapest form of heat you will ever see?

Kevin

Of course in the back of my head I can hear Sting raving about only putting out the btu's needed to satisfy the demand.......and something about balance. Well, if it ain't heating, put out more heat!!!!!



I agree. I have always been the seat of the pants type as well. The only way to fly. :D
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:11 am

KLook wrote:It does make sense.....but the complexities of each install and house are impossible to compute with a simple A+B=C formula. You have to "feel" your system respond or not to cold, wind, different coal, drafts, and many other physical inputs. ......!!!!



Back when I was running the old oil fired boiler, I had a thermostat with a thermometer on it, and I would turn that to the temperature that made me comfortable. If heat stopped coming out of the rads, I would call the service company.

Over the last three years, I've not only installed this new boiler, I've also replumbed the supply to the radiators based on both the books Sting recommended (Excellent!) and the advice of folks like you all here.

A long winded way of saying that simply turning up the tstat is no longer good enough of an answer for me, now I want design specifications so that I can calibrate my real world observations with the theoretical in order to maximize my boiler's utility.

As for turning up the heat, that would have been the first option except that I get flow through the indirect which is directly under my bedroom ao about 3 am in the morning when the DHW passes 150f, that goddam alarm starts going off and wakes me out of a sound sleep. :oops:

This has become somewhat of a hobby at this point so the more I know about it the happier I am. :)
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:16 am

kstills wrote:
This has become somewhat of a hobby at this point so the more I know about it the happier I am. :)



fun stuff -- NOT????
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:31 am

Sting wrote:
kstills wrote:
This has become somewhat of a hobby at this point so the more I know about it the happier I am. :)



fun stuff -- NOT????


It's a challenge that needs to be solved, which is where the enjoyment comes in. :)

I just read Carbon's mockup of Wiz's coal vacuum delivery system, and will be adding that to the to do list for mine.

Next, I need to convince Dave and Matt to make a gasketed lid for the ash pan, intall a two inch gated opening in the side, and I'll be able to vac suck the ash into a can outside the house without carrying the pan any further then right next to the boiler. ;)
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:40 am

Doesn't sound anywhere near normal what your indirect does...definite correction is due with that!
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: WL 110 Questions

PostBy: kstills On: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:56 am

McGiever wrote:Doesn't sound anywhere near normal what your indirect does...definite correction is due with that!


Word again.

I gave serious consideration to changing that over during the heating season, but decided against it. My supply and return are way to far apart on the primary loop, which is allowing the water to bypass my old boiler and flow through the Indirect. Since I'll need to repipe the primary anyway, I'm waiting until I can safely shut the system down for a few days to correct that problem (which get's back to the bit above about knowing that there are things I can change to improve the system).

I have installed a tempering valve to maintain a safe temperature in the bathroom, and last weekend re-piped the kitchen to allow hotter water to flow to the dishwasher. Gotta love that PEX!
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Visit Leisure Line Stove