Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: whistlenut On: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:06 pm

I can respect your tenacity, however why are you hung up on bottom feeders alone? It sure seem that you are overlooking LL and Keystoker as active members of inclined grate products....Losch equipment, Yellow Flame, Wagner, Allen......names from yesterday that work as well today. They are much simpler, more cost effective and off the shelf, so to speak. If you fall into the underfed pothole, then you are not doing justice to yourself or customers. Harman is a sad story, but Dean would not be proud of what became of his legacy. The fact that the prices are higher than the nuts on a Giraffe does not help, however support after the sale is abysmal at best. I am not trying to dissuade you, just to get you to at least "Look at the BOX" even if you choose to wander around the outside of it. If you need 29 small heating units, then say so. You could get Pete Axeman to supply them also......or EFM's parent company.......Alaska at this time wants to steer clear of hydronics, and certainly they are capable of making anything they choose. My point is that I hate to see a bright mind spinning his wheels without making progress. Please understand that we all have had some damned innovative proposals in our minds or on paper, however like yourself we are frustrated that we cannot change the world, even if it is one greenhouse at a time. My local Greenhouse uses 15000 gallons of #2......and you can be damned sure I have presented MANY options to that operation.....even to the extent of installing a test boiler at NO charge for an entire season. I guess he has fallen on the ice too often trying to slither into the Prius.....he could have used the ash from a pair of 900's or 1300's to 'sand' the parking area. :idea: :idea: :roll:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: carlherrnstein On: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:33 pm

Whistelnut you cannot burn soft coal in a inclined grate stoker. With the rough discription of the land i would venture to guess he is located in either WV,KY,OH, or eastern PA soft coal is a lot cheaper than hard coal.

There is a small greenhouse near me that heats one 50"x50" hot house and two 25"x50" hothouses with old stokers. I have only seen the setup in the big one its a old octopus furnace minus the sheet metal shroud and it has a iron fireman stoker that feeds it. They vent into what looks like 8" wellcasing.

If your customer is frugel then I would not steer him to a new unit. The only new made bit stoker I know of is made by willburt in Orrville Ohio they are about $7,000 new. However soft coal stokers come up once in a while on craigslist.

Pellets have a lot less heat in them then soft coal, and they burn a lot differently. Soft coal burns hot enough to melt the ash together and as a result the volume of ash is reduced a lot, pellets basicly make nothing but ash. So the removal of the waste is completly different. If you wanted to burn pellets in a underfed stoker it would need to have a rotating ring like the prill stoker stoves, but a setup like that would not work well for burning eastern bituminous because, the coke would fall off into the ashpan and not burn up.

Have you ever heard of the wiseway pellet stove? Pellet Stove uses no electricity!
It seems like that might be the way to go sense your customer has allready shelled out a pile for a pellet mill.
carlherrnstein
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: combustioneer model 77B
Coal Size/Type: pea stoker/Ohio bituminous

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: McGiever On: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:59 pm

All this fuss about problems w/2 different fuels is being over hyped.
If both fuels are burned as a Blend, then the fuel blend has not the properties of either single fuel.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek


Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:59 pm

Please remember that criticism or negative remarks about other members are forbidden here.
That said please continue the discussion.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: Berlin On: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:33 am

McGiever wrote:All this fuss about problems w/2 different fuels is being over hyped.
If both fuels are burned as a Blend, then the fuel blend has not the properties of either single fuel.


It often has the worst properties of both. blending can be successful, but it takes experimentation or a lot of knowledge to blend coal and achieve the best of both.

Having said that, blending coal and pellets (wood or paper) will often work well as long as the device designed to burn coal burns primarily coal. For a variety of reasons, spreader stoker plants often blend a maximum of 15% paper pellets by volume w/ coal, usually less. In an underfeed, you might be able to get away with more than that as far as combustion goes, but burning paper pellets (or, in this case, wood/biomass pellets - perhaps not compressed as thoroughly as they should be) often leads to problems with augers feeding that type of material.

My advice would be to explain to the individual the best thing he could do would be to heat w/ coal (soft coal for $$ savings if in soft coal country) and sell the pellets or pellet machine to help pay the costs of the coal equipment and installation. Not only are there material handling difficulties burning different blends, but, it takes a lot of time, skill, and care to adjust the air/fuel rates to get good combustion efficiency with stokers. The possibility of blends - specifically ones that may change in their composition from time to time - even slightly - WILL lead to nothing but serious headaches and problems for the operators and/or the designer/installer of the systems, in this case - YOU.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: NJJoe On: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:38 am

Berlin wrote:
McGiever wrote:My advice would be to explain to the individual the best thing he could do would be to heat w/ coal (soft coal for $$ savings if in soft coal country) and sell the pellets or pellet machine to help pay the costs of the coal equipment and installation. Not only are there material handling difficulties burning different blends, but, it takes a lot of time, skill, and care to adjust the air/fuel rates to get good combustion efficiency with stokers. The possibility of blends - specifically ones that may change in their composition from time to time - even slightly - WILL lead to nothing but serious headaches and problems for the operators and/or the designer/installer of the systems, in this case - YOU.


I think Berlin has a great point here. The OP is planning for 50+ devices and for the employees tending the plants in each greenhouse to be responsible for fire tending. That means every employee is going to need to develop these fuel tending/blending skills. Already difficult for the general population with coal, now compound the difficulty even more by requiring employees to manage fuel blending with coal and pellets/paper whatever...

Design for the lowest common denominator of intelligence and keep it as simple as possible. Stick to one fuel and make it coal.
NJJoe
 

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: tsb On: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:03 am

This farm and nursery has been operating for a long time.
So my question would be how have they been heating the buildings up till now ?
tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:56 pm

Are there no buildings within 300' of each other? if there are any setting that close it would be wise to use a centrally located boiler to heat multiple bldgs. 50 units ?? what a tending nightmare !!! Just a " Keep it sensibly simple" idea from my .000001 Set up some pellet units & some coal units ,that way he can utilize his pellet invention idea without the previously mentioned problems of a dual fuel unit.Pellets for the pellet burner ,coal for the coal burner. Wiseway pellet stove is only ? 25kbtu ?? no where near sufficient for greenhouse load ! 50 units ?????
windyhill4.2
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Other Heating: Oaktree OWB 600K

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:15 pm

I believe the OP took his ball and went home. Maybe he will pursue his line of thinking in private and report back. Who knows? Maybe he will crack the code. But GENTLE discouragement should be utilized as no one likes to be made a fool of in a public forum. :idea:

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:45 pm

Kev, you can only sugar coat crap a little bit to off-set the appearance of a turd. Gentle or brutal, what difference does it make. The point gets made; is supported by anyone with a normal way of thinkin'; experience...history...knowledge....WTF can you do to HELP dissuade someone for their personal point of view? There is NO need to discuss it in 2641 posts that are circular in nature. Like working in Excel when you screw up a formula. It politely says: You have a 'circular reference in your formula, would you like to alter it?' That is polite, but if you don't , it will not process YOUR lack of responsibility to correct it. As most of us get older, we lose patience when something incorrectly proposed and the individual is 'Locked at ATTENTION', like 'Custer's Last Stand'. Lighten up, and listen. If not, then F- off and have a nice day back at academia, with the rest of the pointy heads, because the rest of us have more important things to do. :idea: :!: :idea: :!: :idea:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:30 pm

[quote="whistlenut"]Kev, you can only sugar coat crap a little bit to off-set the appearance of a turd. Gentle or brutal, what difference does it make. The point gets made; is supported by anyone with a normal way of thinkin'; experience...history...knowledge....WTF can you do to HELP dissuade someone for their personal point of view? There is NO need to discuss it in 2641 posts that are circular in nature. Like working in Excel when you screw up a formula. It politely says: You have a 'circular reference in your formula, would you like to alter it?' That is polite, but if you don't , it will not process YOUR lack of responsibility to correct it. As most of us get older, we lose patience when something incorrectly proposed and the individual is 'Locked at ATTENTION', like 'Custer's Last Stand'. Lighten up, and listen. If not, then F- off and have a nice day back at academia, with the rest of the pointy heads, because the rest of us have more important things to do. :idea: :!: :idea: :!: :idea:[/quote

X2

The guy told me they don't make 400 stokers anymore. Maybe not the boiler. Arnie said he would sell him as many as he wanted.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 700. Van Wert 1200.
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Multi-Fuel furnaces for a Nursery.

PostBy: HeatTech On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:12 pm

Hey guys,
I have a working unit installed in a building for the rest of the winter. The pot burns the coal very well but the auger diameter needs to be enlarged on the next unit. If the transitioning from wood pellet to buck keeps working then I can start building the rest of the stoves and install them before next winter. Thanks to those that helped with the design.

On a side note to Whistlenut, I'm not sure why you have an issue with me but please pm me your number so we can discuss further. Thanks!
HeatTech