My new Crawford!

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: steamshovel On: Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:29 am

Gekko, interesting shakedown on the refurbished Crawford. I'm puzzled. the stove seemed to work well but I noticed you already have it for sale here in the forum, saying you are getting a bigger stove. did it not throw enough heat or something ? just wondering why you're selling already after having it only a few months. I'd also like to say the temp/efficiency readings would be more accurate if the stack thermometer was on the outlet flange, rather than far up on the flue pipe. checking the outlet that high gives misleading readings as its always way lower temp up there.
steamshovel
 

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: scalabro On: Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:12 am

steamshovel wrote:Gekko, interesting shakedown on the refurbished Crawford. I'm puzzled. the stove seemed to work well but I noticed you already have it for sale here in the forum, saying you are getting a bigger stove. did it not throw enough heat or something ? just wondering why you're selling already after having it only a few months. I'd also like to say the temp/efficiency readings would be more accurate if the stack thermometer was on the outlet flange, rather than far up on the flue pipe. checking the outlet that high gives misleading readings as its always way lower temp up there.



Hi Steamshovel,

Welcome to the forum.

The stove is fantastic, and will keep my oil bills very low. However the No. 2 does not have the firepot size that I need to accommodate my work schedule. I am a corporate aircraft mechanic and as such I am required to cover my aircraft's schedule 24/7/365. Short story is, I need the ability to run the stove untouched for 12-14 hours at 500*+ . The Crawford 40 will allow me to do that. If set lower, I'm thinking a 40 will run much longer.

AFA the temps go, the readings were taken in three places. The upper barrel, lower barrel and just after the MPD about 16 inches from the stove outlet flange on the back pipe. I have measured the temp @ the exh flange but never posted it. Probably because there was a negligible difference from 16 inches out. I'm not too worried about "laboratory efficiency" :)

Cheers,
Scott
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: steamshovel On: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:59 pm

how many lbs. of coal does the Crawford #2 hold total when filled ?
could you post the outlet flange temps vs firepot temps ? I may be interested in it.
steamshovel
 

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Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: scalabro On: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:47 pm

steamshovel wrote:how many lbs. of coal does the Crawford #2 hold total when filled ?
could you post the outlet flange temps vs firepot temps ? I may be interested in it.



That's a good question Steamshovel. I'd say 25-30 lbs. The fire pot measures 8 7/8 x 17 at the top of the rear bricks. I never tried to empty a 40 lb bag in cold, to try to measure. The stove will produce 550 -600 degree temps with my chimney for a solid 10 hours with a full load.

The only records of temps are in this thread somewhere.
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: steamshovel On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:49 am

which dimensions are height and width of firepot, it is a round firepot ? The reason I ask, if it's square I'd need h, w, d measurements. If it's round then just height and diameter, to figure volume. I went back and read the thread, and saw you had a Harman there at first. Are you going to reinstall the Harman for now ? How did the 2 stoves compare, would the Harman give longer burn times ? I think it may have a larger firepot. Going by the pictures the Harman is a lot larger in diameter firebox. Is the Harman for sale, do you still have it ?
steamshovel
 

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: scalabro On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:16 am

steamshovel wrote:which dimensions are height and width of firepot, it is a round firepot ? The reason I ask, if it's square I'd need h, w, d measurements. If it's round then just height and diameter, to figure volume. I went back and read the thread, and saw you had a Harman there at first. Are you going to reinstall the Harman for now ? How did the 2 stoves compare, would the Harman give longer burn times ? I think it may have a larger firepot.



Shovel,

The Crawford has a cylindrical fire pot.

The Harman was sold last Saturday to a forum member in NY.

The Harman was nowhere near as efficient as the Crawford BB, although it would run longer at higher heat settings simply because it had a larger fire pot. However, the Harman would not run as long as, or as easily as, the Crawford 2 will at low settings due to it's less efficient design. An anthracite only, suspended fire pot cylinder stove, is the king of versatility. Being able to easily run at low temps in the warmer "shoulder" months. The Harman did not circulate air as well, I think because of its box shape. Plus I got real tired of hearing the squirrel cage fan running constantly. I have lost a lot of hearing from working on jet engines and helicopters for 30 years, so, for me, having a quiet stove like the Crawford is a big deal.

Silence is Golden!

This post is not meant to "dis" my Harman MKII. They are a good, heavy duty, foolproof coal stove.
They are easy to clean and get parts for and can be repaired by any competent welder if over fired and damaged. If I had a third flue in my chimney I'd still own it and I'd be running it in my basement with a DHW coil in it.

There's plenty to read here on BB's of all types. Read up on them, but be warned, you may get the disease.

Cheers,
Scott
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: steamshovel On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:32 am

Is the reason your Crawford held less coal, maybe due to the firebrick ?? I've been informed that a suspended firepot doesn't really need firebrick as the pot can expand/contract with the heat and not as easily crack, as one that is bolted fast and part of the structure of the stove. Is this true ? I was just reading a Crawford #2 thread elsewhere here by a guy named Onedollar and he gave dimensions about 4" wider than your dimensions. Could this be the thickness of the firebrick yours had in it ? I'm just speculating because it makes no sense why the dimensions differ by about 4".
I guess there's no replacement for displacement, the Harman being a larger capacity could burn hotter longer as you said. It has more reserve fuel supply banked up. But it makes no sense that is would burn a shorter time if dampened. If it burned a longer time when hotter, it should also burn a longer time when dampened down too-with the larger capacity ? My neighbor burns a Harman, it takes 2 days to go out at the end of the season, and holds about 50 lbs. of coal. He gets 24 hour burn times and when heavily damped 36 hours at low heat. Those Harmans seem to hold a LOT of coal.
steamshovel
 

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: scalabro On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:43 am

steamshovel wrote:Is the reason your Crawford held less coal, maybe due to the firebrick ?? I've been informed that a suspended firepot doesn't really need firebrick as the pot can expand/contract with the heat and not as easily crack, as one that is bolted fast and part of the structure of the stove. Is this true ? I was just reading a Crawford #2 thread elsewhere here by a guy named Onedollar and he gave dimensions about 4" wider than your dimensions. Could this be the thickness of the firebrick yours had in it ? I'm just speculating because it makes no sense why the dimensions differ by about 4".
I guess there's no replacement for displacement, the Harman being a larger capacity would burn hotter longer as you said. But it makes no sense that is would burn a shorter time if dampened. If it burned a longer time when hotter, it should also burn a longer time when dampened down-with the larger capacity ? Those Harmans seem to hold a LOT of coal.



That's some bad info right there! A Crawford anthracite only, suspended fire pot stove will be destroyed if it were run without its refractory bricks.

I have original bricks, I don't know what Onedollar, has in his No. 2.

The fire pot design of this style stove allows the coal to stay above ignition temps while throttled back to idle because of its gas flow path around the fire pot. When I tried to run the MKII as low as I can run the Crawford, the coals would cool off and go out.

The Harmans NEED a big box because of their simpler less efficient design.

I think it makes no sense to you because, maybe, you don't really understand the design of a Crawford BB. Don't worry, when I started this journey I didn't either. Read up on them.

Now my eyes have been opened...can I get a Hallelujah from my brothers!?

Amen.
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: steamshovel On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:51 am

that's what I'm doing, reading up. I got confused when I found 2 different firepot dimensions for the #2 in the first 2 threads I looked up. It also seemed unusual to be selling yours after only having it 5 months.
The gentleman who informed me about the suspended firepot not really needing refractory, has been restoring them for 30 years ? are you sure about that ? He said don't line it, instead just have it recast from the original with new modern material and burn it without refractory. maybe to gain more coal capacity ? This may seem like a silly newb question, but if you got longer burn times at higher heat with the Harman, why not just use that ?
steamshovel
 

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: scalabro On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:03 am

steamshovel wrote:that's what I'm doing, reading up. I got confused when I found 2 different firepot dimensions for the #2 in the first 2 threads I looked up. It also seemed unusual to be selling yours after only having it 5 months.
The gentleman who informed me about the suspended firepot not really needing refractory, has been restoring them for 30 years ? are you sure about that ? He said don't line it, instead just have it recast from the original with new modern material and burn it without refractory. maybe to gain more coal capacity ? This may seem like a silly newb question, but if you got longer burn times at higher heat with the Harman, why not just use that ?


Again, I want/need longer burn times at higher temps than this stove can provide. That is why I am selling this stove. I don't HAVE to, I WANT to.

Your friend is wrong.

The reason this stoves design is so good is precisely because of its INSULATED, suspended fire pot.

I sold the the Harman simply because the Crawford will burn less coal for any equivalent heat output, and to me, looks much sexier doing it :)
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:11 am

With a bigger Crawford BB he will get more output than the Harmon & get longer burn times &&& have the ability to idle the stove down for the chilly , not cold days. Oh , there is the appeal factor too,a steel box vs the more feminine figure of the BB.& no air circulation fan needed. You did read that he was tired of listening to the fan on the Harmon,at least i did.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: ONEDOLLAR On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:15 am

steamshovel wrote: I was just reading a Crawford #2 thread elsewhere here by a guy named Onedollar and he gave dimensions about 4" wider than your dimensions. Could this be the thickness of the firebrick yours had in it ? I'm just speculating because it makes no sense why the dimensions differ by about 4


I just measured my Crawford again. I don't remember what I posted before and there is always the chance I made an error with the measurement. Lord knows I am not perfect. There is some "scale" on my firepot from burning. Once I get her down to the Stove Hospital that will be resolved.

So here is the measurments. From the back of the round firepot to the front is 9 inches and it is right at 14 inches from the grate to the top of the pot. I hope this helps.
ONEDOLLAR
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 2014 Chubby Prototype
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford #2 Base Heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:37 pm

approx. .515 c.f. or around 25.75 pounds of nut.

which is not by far half the story because, the BB will more completely burn every ounce of fuel and release to the living space more actual radiant heat from the same amount of fuel than the typical box stove, even fan driven units.

not really a cause for contention, just some physics to be understood.

the question of lining cast iron suspended fire pots in a BB is something i'd guess experience would have to prove. i could see support for going both ways.

steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:54 pm

steamshovel wrote:Is the reason your Crawford held less coal, maybe due to the firebrick ?? I've been informed that a suspended firepot doesn't really need firebrick as the pot can expand/contract with the heat and not as easily crack, as one that is bolted fast and part of the structure of the stove. Is this true ? I was just reading a Crawford #2 thread elsewhere here by a guy named Onedollar and he gave dimensions about 4" wider than your dimensions. Could this be the thickness of the firebrick yours had in it ? I'm just speculating because it makes no sense why the dimensions differ by about 4".
I guess there's no replacement for displacement, the Harman being a larger capacity could burn hotter longer as you said. It has more reserve fuel supply banked up. But it makes no sense that is would burn a shorter time if dampened. If it burned a longer time when hotter, it should also burn a longer time when dampened down too-with the larger capacity ? My neighbor burns a Harman, it takes 2 days to go out at the end of the season, and holds about 50 lbs. of coal. He gets 24 hour burn times and when heavily damped 36 hours at low heat. Those Harmans seem to hold a LOT of coal.


The superiority of a base heater over a box stove is design is well documented here. There have been many involved discussions about it. Base heaters are more efficient in two critical ways. First, they radiate much, much more of the heat from the fire into the living space. Secondly, they are extremely more efficient at burning the fuel so there is much less loss from incomplete combustion. These aspects of design lead to one getting the same heat out of 1/4 to 1/2 less coal consumed.
There is no comparison between the two.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: My new Crawford!

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:42 pm

Wilson and William are two gods in this arena and they both agree baseburners are two steps above. I really am about to test that theory as I will use three BB stoves to attempt to heat a very large drafty house. So we will see that we see. It's what happens when the rubber hits the road that counts.

I will try to get the very best coal I can get and if this winter is a repeat, let them rip. I think 225,000 to 300,000 btu at peak is needed and so I will test this idea and report. Gonna be interesting!
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

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