Which boiler for multiple buildings

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:11 am

May I ASSume -- Mike would be happier with the post from another wise member of the group.
He appears annoyed at most everything I write - but look at my sig and deal with it pal!

kstills wrote:
Well, whenever someone asks these types of questions, there is a sort of checklist you'll need to review before any cost effective answer can be made.

1). How big is your current oil fired boiler?
2). Did you struggle with load on very cold days?
3). What is the heat loss of your dwelling?
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/ ... atLoss.htm
Use that link, follow the associated links to determine the type of construction you have, be as accurate as possible, and apply your results towards what you know of your current energy consumption to make sure you're in the same ballpark. We're getting much colder temps this year, so it wouldn't hurt to run your base calculation a few degrees colder than suggested.
4). How much radiation do you have in your home? You said baseboard, how many feet?
5). How much room in the basement for the new boiler?
6). How much are you willing to spend?
7). Do you have room for a coal bin?
8). Do you have a good location for a handfired appliance, one where you can evenly distribute the heat?


First thing to do is figure out what size unit you'll need for your heating needs. Second is to determine what kind of price you're willing to pay to get that heat. A handfired will probably cost less overall, however a boiler will work for DHW better, plus will give you more even heat delivery. A hand fired will use less coal overall.

A dual fuel boiler means you can get rid of your old oil fired and still be covered by insurance. (if the other fuel is oil/ng). Or, you can get a coal fired boiler and tie it into the existing lines, leaving the original oil fired in place for either emergencies or for when you sell the house.

But since your asking, and assuming you have some money in your budget for either choice, I would personally go with the coal boiler. I looked at both, and I'm glad I opted for the dual fuel coal boiler that I bought. I get plenty of hot water, I can run it year round, it makes a lot of heat, and I kept all the existing radiation in my house.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:43 am

On Sting's "assumption" question, I'm saying the installed radiation in an existing building is entitled to weight as a result of whatever computations went into its original design, and whatever changes have been found to be needed in the building's subsequent use. If a boiler is supplied that is inadequate to power that system, it simply ensures that the system can't perform as designed and intended by the people who actually have used it. On the other hand, if heat loss computations show a number higher than the rating of the installed radiation, the system won't move those btu's out of the boiler, so they are effectively unusable.

My point is that the boiler deals directly with the system to which it is connected, and that the adequacy or inadequacy of the installed radiation is a separate issue. This is most obvious in a steam system, where the steam has a nasty habit of wandering around wherever it wants to if enough btu's aren't put in to build a positive pressure in the installed radiation, completely irrespective of any heat loss computations. I'm not a hydronics guy, and I can imagine that HW systems are more forgiving, but it still seems like the same principle applies. If you're not going to supply enough boiler power to run the installed radiation at its designed capacity, to me it seems like the burden should be on the proponent of the weenie boiler to specify where installed radiation can be eliminated. If all you are going to do is take the word of a computer over the actual experience of actual people, I will have to refer you to my attorney, Samuel Cogley.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:53 am

Pacowy,I'm in agreement with you,my motto is "Keep It Sensibly Simple",I read an earlier post with link to a ( Heat Loss Computation ), I looked at that survey :eek2: !!! common sense still plays a large part in my life. I didn't use any heat complication survey to set up our OW Burner & heating systems for our 3 buildings, we are still keeping warm after 7 yrs of use.The only major mistake we made was going with wood rather than coal.BUT, I'm a simple minded being who likes to do things the simple way !! my .00000000000000001 ,Petron ck out the Leisure Line AA-220 boiler,you have less than 5,000 sq.ft. with RADIANT heat in your shop,talk to Dave or Matt. I'm not always right but Sting neither are you .
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:03 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote: I'm not always right but Sting neither are you .


Difficult if not impossible to reach across the public internet and be right even some of the time.

Completely agree with you!

lets stay friends!
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:13 pm

Sting wrote:May I ASSume -- Mike would be happier with the post from another wise member of the group.
He appears annoyed at most everything I write - but look at my sig and deal with it pal!


No offense intended - it's just dialogue trying to move the ball forward on some topics where you happen to be a participant.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:42 pm

A heat loss calculation is one tool to estimate what the heating load of a structure is. I use it to size radiation, but for an existing installation I like to do a heat loss calc, look at how much radiation is already installed, how well it performs, and how much fuel it takes to do the job. There is a lot of guessing when you do a heat loss on an existing structure. I am not saying it isn't worth an hour of math to do it, but it shouldn't be the only consideration.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: whistlenut On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:59 pm

Frequently a WAG or SWAG seems to be the method of choice. If you were cold before, sure will be again if you don't do some homework. Another thought is from a guy who told me that in an effort to make life easier for the guy fishing wires, they installed the thermostst in a bedroom. Even Homer Simpson could figure that when the bedroom door was closed, it would be stifling OUTSIDE the bedroom and just as the TT was set in the bedroom. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO the heat loss is only one consideration in the large database your brain must evaluate....don't forgo the basic stuff either. Another 'calc' to be considered is the amount of cat hair/dog hair/ dust and 'stuff' that may be 'damping' the current baseboard. Don't laugh, I see it every day. Get the damned vacuum out and remove the panels or covers and clean them out.
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:45 pm

Pacowy wrote:On Sting's "assumption" question, I'm saying the installed radiation in an existing building is entitled to weight as a result of whatever computations went into its original design, and whatever changes have been found to be needed in the building's subsequent use. If a boiler is supplied that is inadequate to power that system, it simply ensures that the system can't perform as designed and intended by the people who actually have used it. On the other hand, if heat loss computations show a number higher than the rating of the installed radiation, the system won't move those btu's out of the boiler, so they are effectively unusable.

My point is that the boiler deals directly with the system to which it is connected, and that the adequacy or inadequacy of the installed radiation is a separate issue. This is most obvious in a steam system, where the steam has a nasty habit of wandering around wherever it wants to if enough btu's aren't put in to build a positive pressure in the installed radiation, completely irrespective of any heat loss computations. I'm not a hydronics guy, and I can imagine that HW systems are more forgiving, but it still seems like the same principle applies. If you're not going to supply enough boiler power to run the installed radiation at its designed capacity, to me it seems like the burden should be on the proponent of the weenie boiler to specify where installed radiation can be eliminated. If all you are going to do is take the word of a computer over the actual experience of actual people, I will have to refer you to my attorney, Samuel Cogley.

Mike


I don't see where anyone said to do a heat loss calculation and install the a boiler of the exact capacity that the software spits out? It is one tool out of many, and is very helpful if the existing system doesn't perform as desired, or the performance & fuel consumption history is unknown. If the existing system heats the house evenly and comfortably on a day like today (-15 at my house), and you know how much fuel it takes to do it...well then you also have a very good idea what the heat load is.

I will use my own house as an example. If I had just assumed that the installer of the existing heating system did it correctly and matched the oil boiler capacity, I would have needed an EFM 900. I suffered though a cold December/January with an hour meter on the oil burner, and discovered the most it ever ran was 10 hours out of 24. I also discovered that the installer had run radiators around the perimeter of the room with no regard for heat loss. Some rooms were roasting while others were comfortable. I download a free heat loss program, spent an hour or two doing some math, and got a much better idea of how much radiation should be in each room. I added radiation to one room, and put another on its own zone, the remaining rooms I piped off a manifold so I could adjust the flow going to each room (and balance the heat). Oh yeah, I also installed an EFM 520 boiler that easily heats my house. Tomorrow will mark 3 years since I lit the first fire in our 520, and our house has never been so comfortable or economical to heat.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Petron On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:06 pm

Thank you all for the vigor you have all attacked this problem with. Yes I'm going to do the heat calc, but not today, as I'm busy with work......I live in a 150 year old house with insulation in some places ,better than others........at least I know that this problem is being examined by the right people...that of course is you .. And I thank you all.....hopefully by this weekend I can come up with the numbers you all require.... :D
Petron
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Econo
Coal Size/Type: Rice

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:32 pm

Rob's description illustrates the point I was trying to make about the way installed radiation functions as a "middleman" between heat loss and boiler sizing. Heat loss computations can help you figure out if you have too much or too little installed radiation. By the same token, the boiler's performance will be governed by the load associated with the installed radiation, and not directly by heat loss considerations.

For example, when a system that has been set back at night tries to warm up in the morning, it sends out, say, 180 degree water through the installed radiation. If the boiler is not able to replenish the 150 or so btu/hr given up by each sf of installed radiation, the temperature of the boiler water drops and none of the radiation performs up to its design output. This can be compounded by DHW loads that may arise at that time of day. Even if the boiler has been sized to more than cover the computed rate of heat loss, the radiators will feel cool and the hot water supply for showers may be slowed if the boiler can't match the btu draw associated with the installed radiation.

On this basis, I suggest that boiler sizing start with more explicit consideration of the load associated with installed radiation (which is comparatively straightforward to compute), and that heat loss calculations be used to guide changes that may be warranted in installed radiation, but not directly as a determinant of the appropriate boiler size.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:00 pm

you cant let this go - well in the light of "conversation: Ill dip my toe back in here. Who knows _ I could get banned yet :D

Pacowy wrote:Rob's description illustrates the point I was trying to make about the way installed radiation functions as a "middleman" between heat loss and boiler sizing. Heat loss computations can help you figure out if you have too much or too little installed radiation. By the same token, the boiler's performance will be governed by the load associated with the installed radiation, and not directly by heat loss considerations.


Lets just hold that thought for a moment == Ill get back to you


errr well See below :cry:

Pacowy wrote:For example, when a system that has been set back at night tries to warm up in the morning, it sends out, say, 180 degree water through the installed radiation. If the boiler is not able to replenish the 150 or so btu/hr given up by each sf of installed radiation, the temperature of the boiler water drops and none of the radiation performs up to its design output.


Radiation does not have to perform to its "Design Output" - it only has to be capable of giving up energy to the room in a capacity to heat that room
It could easily be sized may times too large BUT.... with the correct flow it will produce a wonderful - comfortable room heat - or with incorrect flow, it could destroy the appliance and/or leave the room too cold or too hot.

It depends ------

The appliance will have to be able to supply the energy necessary to keep the load - all loads as necessary and as they vary - again this can be accomplished with management or gross over-sizing.
This has been discussed [ and proven ] may times in my soap box rants for System Balancing


Pacowy wrote:This can be compounded by DHW loads that may arise at that time of day. Even if the boiler has been sized to more than cover the computed rate of heat loss, the radiators will feel cool and the hot water supply for showers may be slowed if the boiler can't match the btu draw associated with the installed radiation.


It makes no difference if a radiator feels cool If it is heating [and keeping] the room to set point = example In-floor heating --- way over-sized for 180 degree water but with far less temperature - Ahhhhh comfort and energy efficiency!


Pacowy wrote:On this basis, I suggest that boiler sizing start with more explicit consideration of the load associated with installed radiation (which is comparatively straightforward to compute), and that heat loss calculations be used to guide changes that may be warranted in installed radiation, but not directly as a determinant of the appropriate boiler size.

Mike



again - it makes far far less difference if the radiation is over-sized -- BUT if it is undersized - well that's a horse of a different color -- and guess what???? A lucid heat loss calculation will uncover that drama

Thanks for playing Mike - kick up the stupid things I wrote above - I can learn from that
Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:54 pm

I responded to Rob's post to clarify that I thought it was consistent with what I was trying to say, and not the counter-example as which it appeared to be styled. Is that not ok?

You seem to have agreed with my point that the heat loss computations may be useful for assessing the adequacy of the installed radiation. As for the rest of it, if I understand it correctly you're saying it doesn't matter if the radiators are cold or if people have to wait for their showers in the morning because the system will get there eventually as long as the boiler output is bigger than the heat loss. To me, that's like advising people that they should buy a car with the smallest possible engine to be "efficient", but not mention that they might not be able to accelerate onto a highway or even maintain speed going up hill when they're, say, towing a pallet of coal on a utility trailer. You're applying - but not disclosing - value judgments about "acceptable" levels of non-performance or delayed performance that may not be very appealing to people who spend thousands of dollars to acquire and install a coal boiler. And again, you're not addressing at all the numerous assumptions embedded in the heat loss computations themselves, which easily can miss real-world conditions that take btu's out of real-world living spaces.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:10 pm

Heat loss and pickup load are two different things...but lack of capacity for pickup can cause you to be cold for a longer period of time if the system isn't well controlled. Other forum members have discovered this when they install a boiler in a well insulated home with a high-mass radiation system and they don't pipe/control it properly.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Petron On: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:52 pm

Ok did a rough calculation..........how do you read this gibberish.....I think what it saying for my home is 32733loss.....but I'm not doing the other building untill I know if it's right
Petron
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Econo
Coal Size/Type: Rice

Re: Which boiler for multiple buildings

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:37 am

As a simple figment of the public internet its hard to tell from here if its "right"

Maybe Mike can tell from where he is at ????

or can you copy and paste your math?
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Visit Lehigh Anthracite