Problems with kaa-2 temps.

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: McGiever On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:45 am

farrell2k, Whats the boiler pressure gauge reading?
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:19 am

farrell2k wrote:Both zones seem to return water at around the same temp, both pretty hot to the touch. The circulators don't seem to be running all the time. I can feel and hear them kick on and off.



What is the boiler temp when the circulators kick off?
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:21 am

blrman07 wrote:
Your circ pumps are not running constantly probably because they are wired to run from the low temp aquastat. Boiler water cools down to below the lower setting and the circ pumps shut off until the boiler gets back up to the low temp setting. Try setting the low temp aquastat higher or simply change the wiring so the pumps run off the thermostat not the aquastat. On another boiler I put in a manual switch so they would never shut off unless I wanted them to run in auto.

You can't get that water out to the system unless those circ pumps are running!!!

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.


Image
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

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Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:37 am

It doesn't look like anything is connected to the ZC terminal in the aquastat. Regardless, it doesn't sound like the controls are setup properly. Add that to poor quality coal, and you get cold. :cry:

Like Larry mentioned, get those circulators wired off a separate relay so they run on a heat call and connect the end switch to the aquastat...that way it will head for the high limit whenever there is a heat call.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:44 am

If your return lines feel hot coming back to the boiler, your not getting circulation. A) you have an air bubble in the system( do a zone purge with a hose). B) your circulator is not functioning correctly . I believe that I remember that you mentioned HEARING the water circulating in the pipes. That means one thing , you have air in the lines! Till your sure the air is out - forget about all the other drama.
waldo lemieux
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:58 am

Rob R. wrote:It doesn't look like anything is connected to the ZC terminal in the aquastat. Regardless, it doesn't sound like the controls are setup properly. Add that to poor quality coal, and you get cold. :cry:

Like Larry mentioned, get those circulators wired off a separate relay so they run on a heat call and connect the end switch to the aquastat...that way it will head for the high limit whenever there is a heat call.


Let me ask a general question here.

Assuming the system is set up with proper controls, when it's running at design it should not shut off, ie the heat going out from the boiler should match the heat loss and you should be in a state of constant circulation, no?

With the temps we've gotten lately, my system never cools down, at least not like it does when it's 30 degree average temp. The radiators are always 'hot', so even when the tstat makes a call, getting the constant water temp back up to the low limit only takes a few cycles. Rads are much less prone to giving up all their heat compared to slant fin, I'll grant you, but slant fin also doesn't take as long to bring up to temp. And circulating 8 gallons with a 24 gallon reserve should be pretty easy to do, thermally speaking. Heck, the LL110 is a 12 gallon capacity and it does the job with a moderate amount of insulation.

If indeed his heat loss exceeds his boiler capacity, he should be running flat out,no: with his boiler temps maxed (either to the LL setting or the HL setting, depending on how he's wired in). He would have to be losing so much heat out of his radiation continuously to have a constant supply of water returning that was too cold to maintain circulation that it boggles the mind.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: North Candlewood On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:19 am

I'm with Waldo,
I just read thru this whole thread and my thoughts exactly.
Purge & this goes back to someone saying "Flow"
Then I'd search out air leaks in home that maybe robbing heat. Sill plates, splits in siding allowing air into wall cavity.
Attic access sealed up to reduce the chimney effect.
North Candlewood
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Eshland S-130
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A 120
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1602
Baseburners & Antiques: Princess Atlantic Cookstove
Coal Size/Type: Nut Rice

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:25 am

Is there a hunk of cheese at the end of this Maze?
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:32 am

Sting

just remember, its the second mouse that gets the cheese!
waldo lemieux
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:37 am

Maybe we have a forum member in the area that can take a look? A stoker boiler guy with basic electrical skills should have this diagnosed in short order.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:41 am

Rob R. wrote:Maybe we have a forum member in the area that can take a look? A stoker boiler guy with basic electrical skills should have this diagnosed in short order.


Farrell isn't going to be able to handle control changes, unless I misunderstand his posts. And it doesn't seem he's in a position fiscally to put much money into having someone fix it for him.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:42 am

YES, YES, YES!!! ABSOLUTLY CORRECT!!!!!!! Boiler and circulators should be running flat out, non stop. But, that's ONLY ONCE THE STOKER CATCHES UP! The problem here is, the stoker never CAUTCHES UP before the triple aquastat shuts it down. Long before the stoker has a chance to ramp up, the boiler water drops below thriple aquastat low setting, and SHUTS DOWN THE STOKER. Three groups of 4, or 5 pins takes care of that lag time, due to small idle fire. With the HOTTER IDLE FIRE, the stoker is able to catch up before the triple aquastat's low setting shuts it down. Once it's caught up, she'll run flat out, as you say. This is how it's wired from the factory. He should start with the settings I gave him earlier on. At least he'll have a positive starting point. If nothing else, JUST ADD THE PINS. Then check back with us in an hour or so to give results. One step at a time. My Kaa-2 performs excellent in ALL weather conditions. I would think he'd start out with positive proven settings. NO WAY is that Kaa-2 too small to heat his house. If the problem is that the boiler is not capable of putting out the BTU's he needs, it's not a boiler problem at all. It's an insulation problem.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: titleist1 On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:44 am

waldo lemieux wrote:Sting

just remember, its the second mouse that gets the cheese!


not always....... 8-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvU1i59Iamg
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 am

oliver power wrote:YES, YES, YES!!! ABSOLUTLY CORRECT!!!!!!! Boiler and circulators should be running flat out, non stop. But, that's ONLY ONCE THE STOKER CATCHES UP! The problem here is, the stoker never CAUTCHES UP before the triple aquastat shuts it down. Long before the stoker has a chance to ramp up, the boiler water drops below thriple aquastat low setting, and SHUTS DOWN THE STOKER. Three groups of 4, or 5 pins takes care of that lag time, due to small idle fire. With the HOTTER IDLE FIRE, the stoker is able to catch up before the triple aquastat's low setting shuts it down. Once it's caught up, she'll run flat out, as you say. This is how it's wired from the factory. He should start with the settings I gave him earlier on. At least he'll have a positive starting point. If nothing else, JUST ADD THE PINS. Then check back with us in an hour or so to give results. One step at a time. My Kaa-2 performs excellent in ALL weather conditions. I would think he'd start out with positive proven settings. NO WAY is that Kaa-2 too small to heat his house. If the problem is that the boiler is not capable of putting out the BTU's he needs, it's not a boiler problem at all. It's an insulation problem.


I would like to visit this for a moment please
The little coal boiler will not be able to "catch up" as long as that Triple Aquastat -- "wired correctly" -->NOT<-- continues to only circulate energy bearing water when the boiler is OFF


the TT terminals of the blasted Trple A should be jumper-ed and the boiler should be running anytime it needs to keep itself HOT. The circulators should be running anytime the boiler is above condensing temperature and the load is calling for heat.

A triple Aquastat for total system control on a solid fuel heating appliance is just Sick and Wrong if the solid fuel appliance is allowed to continue to run full out as long as the load is calling and it has protection from circulation so it will not drop into condensing temperatures - then.... an undersized appliance will have a chance to be the little engine that could
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: kstills On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:05 am

oliver power wrote:YES, YES, YES!!! ABSOLUTLY CORRECT!!!!!!! Boiler and circulators should be running flat out, non stop. But, that's ONLY ONCE THE STOKER CATCHES UP! The problem here is, the stoker never CAUTCHES UP before the triple aquastat shuts it down. Long before the stoker has a chance to ramp up, the boiler water drops below thriple aquastat low setting, and SHUTS DOWN THE STOKER. Three groups of 4, or 5 pins takes care of that lag time, due to small idle fire. With the HOTTER IDLE FIRE, the stoker is able to catch up before the triple aquastat's low setting shuts it down. Once it's caught up, she'll run flat out, as you say. This is how it's wired from the factory. He should start with the settings I gave him earlier on. At least he'll have a positive starting point. If nothing else, JUST ADD THE PINS. Then check back with us in an hour or so to give results. One step at a time. My Kaa-2 performs excellent in ALL weather conditions. I would think he'd start out with positive proven settings. NO WAY is that Kaa-2 too small to heat his house. If the problem is that the boiler is not capable of putting out the BTU's he needs, it's not a boiler problem at all. It's an insulation problem.


This is the part of the KA2 operation that is foreign to me.


On my boiler, when there is a heat call, the boiler is running at max output (determined by the initial adjustments made during setup). The Idle fire is set using a seperate rheostat control that is adjusted as needed for weather/temperature conditions.

So in my case, at some point when I'm running at design, the system will be running flat out, with the circulating water equaling the (in my case) low limit setting on the aquastat. If the heatloss of the dwelling exceeds the output at that point, I'll lose temperature in the dwelling, however the system should be running as stated.

I'm gathering from what your saying that the KA2 has more than one 'max setting' and that Farrel can increae that, thereby increasing the recovery time of the boiler?

I should add that, in my case, my stoker always catches up. It might take a while, but running at full burn eventually the system temp is circulating ~160f water.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

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