Problems with kaa-2 temps.

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:46 pm

farrell2k wrote:OK, so here is a pic of my aquastat and my fire with the boiler currently at 140*. I currently have the aquastat set to 160L/180H/15Diff. When the boiler gets up to temp the circulators run, the boiler temp drops to around 140* and the pumps stop until it gets back up to temp.

The aquastat came pre-wired from keystone. The only thing I did was connect the circulator to C1 and C2.

old temps at 140/160/10 diff.
20140124_110755.jpg


I scraped the inside of the boiler last week, too! :(
20140129_150908.jpg
farrell2k, I'm heating 800 more square feet than you. My Kaa-2 performs like a fine tuned engine. I posted ALL my settings for you on page #4. I suggest you go back to page #4, and write down all my settings. Transfer my settings to your boiler. That's where you need to start. Have you done this yet??? You need to do it. Otherwise, as you describe above is exactly what happens. The one thing I forgot to mention on page #4 is; Let the boiler get up to around 180 - 200 BEFORE turning on the circulator. In other words, turn your thermostats all the way down. Let the boiler come up to 180-200. Then turn up the thermostats. What's so difficult about that? If my settings/directions don't solve your problem, then, as mentioned, call in a professional, as you have other issues. At least you will have good solid settings. And don't forget to keep us tuned in. Oliver
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:52 pm

Check your PM's Oliver...... ;)

kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: dave brode On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:29 pm

Rob R. wrote:
snipped

The fire in the pictures on page 1 looks awfully "lazy" to me, but the other KAA-2 guys will have to common on that.


I agree, which is why I suggested more air. And more air may allow a slightly higher feed rate.

You can't just copy the feed and air shutter settings that work for someone else. How did a mechanic adjust the air/fuel screws on the old carbureted engines? Did he set every carburetor of a certain type the same? No, he gave each engine what it wanted. It's air and fuel. Your coal may need more air than mine, or vice-versa.

KeyStoker gives you a STARTING POINT. The do not state that you should never deviate from that. Otherwise, they would not provide an adjustable air shutter, as they call it. Slightly different stoker motor rpm, different friction on the plate, different friction on the grate, different coal, maybe a degree or three difference in the boiler being perfectly level, leakage around the grates, one fan putting out slightly more cfm than the next, etc etc.

Dave
p.s. - more pins :idea:

Edit / p.p.s. - glad that you have some heat now!!
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: used to have a 5 section Red Square
Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:36 am

dave brode wrote:
Rob R. wrote:
snipped

The fire in the pictures on page 1 looks awfully "lazy" to me, but the other KAA-2 guys will have to common on that.


I agree, which is why I suggested more air. And more air may allow a slightly higher feed rate.

You can't just copy the feed and air shutter settings that work for someone else. How did a mechanic adjust the air/fuel screws on the old carbureted engines? Did he set every carburetor of a certain type the same? No, he gave each engine what it wanted. It's air and fuel. Your coal may need more air than mine, or vice-versa.

KeyStoker gives you a STARTING POINT. The do not state that you should never deviate from that. Otherwise, they would not provide an adjustable air shutter, as they call it. Slightly different stoker motor rpm, different friction on the plate, different friction on the grate, different coal, maybe a degree or three difference in the boiler being perfectly level, leakage around the grates, one fan putting out slightly more cfm than the next, etc etc.

Dave
p.s. - more pins :idea:

Edit / p.p.s. - glad that you have some heat now!!
Agree Dave. But, if he copied my settings, he'd have a good solid starting point. Like the mechanic, starting point on most engines was 1 full turn on the needles.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: blrman07 On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:39 am

farrell2k wrote:
Carbon12 wrote:I was reading it that the circ would turn off below low limit before the demand would be met, the house would cool, circ would come back on at low limit and then the cycle would repeat.


The stove gets up to temperature then the circulator kicks in. The boiler temp drops when the hot water leaves and then the circulator stops until the boiler satisfies the low setting and the cycle starts again. , room temp drops. Can't get above 64 in the room.

I do have the a stat set to 160/180/15 as carbon suggested. I will d see what that does. Thanks.


When we hear hoof beats why do we go looking for Zebra's?

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: installing a VC 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: farrell2k On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:56 am

And with temps here at 1* outside, I am almost back to square one. I woke up to the house at 68* after having it run at 72 for hours yesterday when temps were 10* outside. It sure beats 66*, but I still think it should be cranking out more. I added more pins to the timer and have the feed rate up as oliver suggested, but I now suspect that I either need to try new coal or that the heat loss of the house is just too much on cold, single temp nights. I am done screwing with this thing :(
farrell2k
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Kaa2
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: KA2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:10 am

farrell2k wrote:
20140124_110755.jpg


This was the easiest and quickest thing to change

Did you???

To what??

Inquiring minds want to KNOW :D
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: farrell2k On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:18 am

Sting wrote:
farrell2k wrote:
20140124_110755.jpg


This was the easiest and quickest thing to change

Did you???

To what??

Inquiring minds want to KNOW :D


Of course. :) I am at 170/190/15 diff right now.
farrell2k
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Kaa2
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: KA2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:58 am

So if you added pins, you must have shortened lag time. Which means your circulator is not shutting down at below triple aquastat low setting, Correct? I'm assuming you are starting out with 3 groups of 5 pins, or didn't you? By the way, turn the settings back to 160 - 180. All you did by turning those settings up is to raise your low temp shut-off. Go back to 160 - 180 and leave it there. OK, so if you took care of lag time, and circulator is not shutting down at below low aquastat setting of 160*, then your boiler(stoker and circulator) should be running flat out, Correct? It will run flat out till thermostats are satisfied. Your fire should be about an inch from the end of the carpet (grate) when running flat out. If not, give your stoker feed one more turn clockwise, wait a half hour, then check to see how far from the end of grate. Continue this till you have about 1 inch of ash at the end of grate while stoker is running flat out. And don't forget to continually keep us posted. We need to know results in order to better help you.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: farrell2k On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:29 am

So I am about an inch from falling hot coals off the grate, so I am fine there. I have been back to 160/180 since I last posted, but the temp outside has just shot up to 11*, and I am back up to 72 in the house. I did turn the shutoff for the upstairs circulator half closed to try to keep more hot water going downstairs as there is zero insulation upstairs. I did that last night as well, and I think that was what allowed me to get to 72. Before bed i opened it back up and the temp dropped. I think that is the issue, too much water going upstairs.

Oliver, the circulator does shut off when temps fall below low on the aquastat.
farrell2k
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Kaa2
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: KA2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: CoaldHeat On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:41 am

It would be worth a minute to walk around and inspect your baseboards. Are the vents partially closed at the top of them? Sometimes mine would somehow get somewhat closed back in the oil heat days. If you have an air tank and hose with nozzle, a quick blast of the fins to make sure they are clean, and lastly, make sure they are not blocked by anything. I had no choice back in the day but to put a couch in front of a major section on baseboard. I ended up making a Tim the Tool man Taylor rig, with two blowers mounted to a board with a thermocouple that laid on the copper, so when is sensed the heat it would turn on the blowers which forced air under the baseboard and pushed the heat out of them. It worked really well, but was pretty loud :) Either way, best of luck.
CoaldHeat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer LE/T
Coal Size/Type: Rice

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:03 am

farrell2k wrote:So I am about an inch from falling hot coals off the grate, so I am fine there. I have been back to 160/180 since I last posted, but the temp outside has just shot up to 11*, and I am back up to 72 in the house. I did turn the shutoff for the upstairs circulator half closed to try to keep more hot water going downstairs as there is zero insulation upstairs. I did that last night as well, and I think that was what allowed me to get to 72. Before bed i opened it back up and the temp dropped. I think that is the issue, too much water going upstairs.

Oliver, the circulator does shut off when temps fall below low on the aquastat.
Now we're getting somewhere. I know your circulator shuts down when boiler temp drops below low limit. Question is; is the boiler STILL dropping below low limit AFTER adding pins to the timer? How many pins do you have in the timer? Three groups of how many? Just to inform you; 80+ percent of heat loss is through the attic. If you have NO insulation in the attic, You have an insulation problem, not a heating system problem. Please, still give feed back. How many pins in timer? Are you still dropping below Low limit setting?
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:08 pm

I've read this thread with keen interest because my house is the same size as the OP. It's clear that with significant heat loss, the Kaa-2 is not large enough for even a small home if not well-insulated.

So, what does the OP do for next year?

Should he sell the Kaa-2 and buy the larger Kaa-4 or better yet, the KA-6. This board has taught me that size matters, and you can never have enough btu's. I would rather complain about unburned coal in the ash pan from an idling boiler than be in a situation where the house is cold because the 5 or 6 thousand dollar boiler I bought is too small.

Just posting an opinion.....
EarthWindandFire
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Lil' Heater.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 75.
Other Heating: Oil and Natural Gas.

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:49 pm

Less expense to insulate the top of the house (attic),tune existing boiler to peak performance & use a few electric heaters to help out for the ridiculously cold spells .
windyhill4.2
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Other Heating: Oaktree OWB 600K

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: kstills On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:16 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:I've read this thread with keen interest because my house is the same size as the OP. It's clear that with significant heat loss, the Kaa-2 is not large enough for even a small home if not well-insulated.

So, what does the OP do for next year?

Should he sell the Kaa-2 and buy the larger Kaa-4 or better yet, the KA-6. This board has taught me that size matters, and you can never have enough btu's. I would rather complain about unburned coal in the ash pan from an idling boiler than be in a situation where the house is cold because the 5 or 6 thousand dollar boiler I bought is too small.

Just posting an opinion.....


A great question, for people who already have an existing boiler/heating device.

Reading through several heating forums, I've come across multiple topics where this issue is discussed. Design temperatures, for the most part, only take place a very small percentage of the time. So the boiler/heating device will only run at design once a season or so (more, if global cooling is actually happening). In fact, over the last three years, at least in this area (Philly burbs) this is the first time we've been at design temperatures.

And I'll add to Windy, better to insulate the house and put on a hoodie when it gets real cold, then worry about a week in the winter when it will be 66 in the house instead of 72.

Again, that's only for the folks caught in this situation that have an existing boiler/heating device that have found out that they are maxed out in this weather.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Visit Lehigh Anthracite