Problems with kaa-2 temps.

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:37 pm

Hope he comes back and reports in........ :o

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:55 pm

Me too!
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:00 pm

Slowing down the flow is a very good idea,we use a programmable thermostat in our leaky house & it works fine ,BUT bringing temp up 5* in the a/m can take a long time on a very cold day with high winds. Yet our system has no trouble at all to maintain the set temp.no matter the outside temp/wind,so lots to be said for maintaining the mass vs heating up the mass. If he slows down the water flow & keeps everything from the up & down cycling i think he will see a big improvement.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:36 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:lots to be said for maintaining the mass vs heating up the mass.


I understand this may be a strategy for trying to keep an undersized boiler out of a hole it can't escape, but in the bigger picture isn't this saying that an undersized boiler may not let you achieve the efficiency benefits of setbacks? That seems like more like a constraint or cost imposed by the undersized boiler, and not anything that is meritorious on its own..

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:42 pm

If he ever comes back online, maybe someone near him can swing by for a first hand look. Must be many members near Pittston, PA.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:01 pm

oliver power wrote:I'll give you my settings. First off, I'm heating 1700 square feet using 76 feet of 3/4" finned baseboard radiation. I'm heating my place to 73*. So, unless you have a big heat loss, the little Kaa-2 is not too small to heat your 900 square foot house. I'm burning buck size coal. Stoker feed: turn the feed screw all the way clockwise. Then back it off about 3 - 3-1/2 turns. Triple Aquastat: is set 160* Low - 180* high, w/10 differential. Timer: with these temps, I need 3 groups of 5 pins. Being only 900 square feet, 5 pins per group may trigger your high limit aquastat. Then you'll try 3 groups of 4 pins. Maybe add / subtract one or two pins. You get the picture? With the Kaa-2 boiler, you need to maintain a higher, more responsive fire on the carpet. And you do this with timer pins, depending on weather conditions. The Kaa-2 is not engineered to run on the timer, but that's how it has to be run. That's what throws the non-Kaa-2 owners off. On other boilers, the timer is for keeping min fire. As for the Kaa-2, the bigger the fire, the less lag time, which gives the stoker time to ramp up, and take over in these bitter cold temps. If the carpet fire is too big, you'll trip the high limit aquastat. Take out pins to fine tune. Too much lag time, and the boiler drops below the low limit on the triple aquastat, shutting down the circulator, which if I'm reading into this correctly, is your problem. Yes, if you hear water going through the pipes, I too am guessing the noise is air. I'm guessing your problems are; 1.) not enough pins in the timer. 2.) Air in the system. 3.) Too much heat loss. 4.) As Sting said, slowing down the flow gives time for heat to be absorbed by the finned baseboard radiation. Let us know how you make out. Oliver
I forgot to mention; for best results, after adding pins, turn down your thermostats. Let the boiler come up to hi aquastat temp (180*), or a little higher, before turning thermostats back up. If boiler is not up to temp, you'll continue having the same problem. Don't make the zones fight for BTU's because the boiler is not yet up to temp.
Last edited by oliver power on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:01 pm

I wasn't trying to belittle the need for properly sized boiler,just saying that in this situation it might help to keep a constant rather than up & down.Our block walled shop is perfect example of my point - lower temp at nite = longer cool feeling in the shop during the day vs keeping stat set at same temp 24/7,the tools/concrete & equipment all stay heated up increasing the warm feeling. Big pic right now is to utilize the existing system as best as possible & then in off season implement actions to eliminate current issues.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:10 pm

Pacowy wrote:
windyhill4.2 wrote:lots to be said for maintaining the mass vs heating up the mass.


I understand this may be a strategy for trying to keep an undersized boiler out of a hole it can't escape, but in the bigger picture isn't this saying that an undersized boiler may not let you achieve the efficiency benefits of setbacks? That seems like more like a constraint or cost imposed by the undersized boiler, and not anything that is meritorious on its own..

Mike
As the weather warms, he'll be taking pins back out of timer. His hi limit aquastat will let him know if he's maintaining too hi of boiler temps. It's just during these cold temps he needs to run on the timer. He'll find by controlling his fire on the carpet, he'll be more comfortable, as well as more efficient. He's not wasting BTU's. They will be used. Why else do you think Keystoker sends about 30 timer pins with the Kaa-2? It's not because they have extras.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:40 pm

You don't think they over produced pins & are trying to lower their inventory ?? :rofl: hmm oversized pin producing machine causes manufacturer to implement a dump zone via each boiler purchased. :rofl: :yearight:
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:26 pm

I don't see how timer pins are the real problem. When the unit is running under a heavy load, it spends less time running on the timer in the first place, and in any case it shouldn't take that long to fire back up. Zones fighting each other for btu's and "better" performance when the efficiency of idling is sacrificed to me point to the same root problem - insufficient boiler size. As long as the boiler is sized to power the installed radiation to which it is attached (plus DHW load), zones won't fight each other for btu's and the boiler can rest in a true and efficient idle when stoker output is not needed. The various ad hoc remedies discussed in this thread and others may mitigate some of the symptoms, but they don't solve the underlying problems that can be created by reliance on boilers that are undersized relative to the installed radiation (plus DHW load).

Mike

P.S. To be clear, I'm not saying the installed radiation should not be sized carefully according to heat loss or other relevant considerations. I'm saying that once you have fixed the amount of radiation, you create your own problems if you try to power it with a boiler whose capacity to produce btu's is less than the rate at which the radiation delivers the btu's (plus DHW load). With all of the references made to the need for system "balance", this is a fundamental cause of imbalance that appears to be overlooked by the proponents of undersized boilers.
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:13 pm

I see several references to having the OP to SLOW down the flow...I am not sure I can agree.

Remember that a slower flow does make for a higher Delta T (colder return temps)...is this really going to be a solution???

In any event the boiler is not matched but undersized to the load...adjust as you may, but it ain't going to work out well. ;)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: oliver power On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:01 pm

Pacowy wrote:I don't see how timer pins are the real problem. When the unit is running under a heavy load, it spends less time running on the timer in the first place, and in any case it shouldn't take that long to fire back up. Zones fighting each other for btu's and "better" performance when the efficiency of idling is sacrificed to me point to the same root problem - insufficient boiler size. As long as the boiler is sized to power the installed radiation to which it is attached (plus DHW load), zones won't fight each other for btu's and the boiler can rest in a true and efficient idle when stoker output is not needed. The various ad hoc remedies discussed in this thread and others may mitigate some of the symptoms, but they don't solve the underlying problems that can be created by reliance on boilers that are undersized relative to the installed radiation (plus DHW load).

Mike

P.S. To be clear, I'm not saying the installed radiation should not be sized carefully according to heat loss or other relevant considerations. I'm saying that once you have fixed the amount of radiation, you create your own problems if you try to power it with a boiler whose capacity to produce btu's is less than the rate at which the radiation delivers the btu's (plus DHW load). With all of the references made to the need for system "balance", this is a fundamental cause of imbalance that appears to be overlooked by the proponents of undersized boilers.
Hi Mike, During the colder months, the Kaa-2 needs to maintain a bigger/hotter "idle" fire on the carpet by adding timer pins. I call it riding on the timer because that's what it is doing. Not a lot, just a little. The bigger idle fire reduces lag time. Reduce the lag time of the Kaa-2, and it runs like a Swiss Watch. Otherwise, yes, you are correct. The triple aquastat controls the stoker. The problem the original poster has is too much lag time. With the small water capacity of the Kaa-2, the boiler temp drops below the low limit of the aquastat before the stoker is ramped up to speed. This shuts off the circulator. Maintaining a bigger idle fire takes care of that problem. And you do that by adding timer pins. Oliver
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: blrman07 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:27 pm

We are debating merits of a system that we haven't seen and the original poster appears to have bailed. A couple of things have happened. Either he instituted some of our suggestions and his problem is cured and he didn't tell us, or he gave up and plugged in electric heaters.

Either way he seems to have bailed. Now the frustrating part begins. Not knowing if he and his family is warm.... or still cold..........

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Baseburners & Antiques: rebuilding a 1906 March Brownback Double Heater, using a UMCO 1920's Pot Belly stove in the church
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:31 pm

Frustrating, isn't it??? I sent him a PM yesterday asking him to let us all know how he's doing. He hasn't read it yet.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Problems with kaa-2 temps.

PostBy: titleist1 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:32 pm

:D patience, people patience....sometimes life gets in the way of a good coal hobby!! :lol:
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite