new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:22 pm

Yikes! My previously enjoyed 4 year old KA6 boiler was $2000.00. Supplies, tubing and hot water to hot air heat exchanger was about another thousand. I installed myself and the total cost was less than $3500.00. :D
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:45 pm

volkoff wrote: All walls are 2 x 6 blown in cellulose insulation.



A little off topic but this seems very unusual for modern construction. Fiberglass batts are typical, with (I'm thinking) loose cellulose I'd be concerned about settling and moisture build up within the compacted cellulose (if it is compacted). Beside's , thinking is they can install loose cellulose in a new house wall from the inside only if they first install the plastic vapor barrier, then cut a hole in the plastic.

Is my logic correct or is there some unknown to me assurance that some types of loose cellulose do not settle/compact?

Before I spent a lotta money on this house, I'd be checking for mold on the inside of the outside walls especially if there was no vapor barrier (???) , especially the north side.

All this heat pump and wall stuff sounds pretty strange......wonder if the basement wall has footings..... :o
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: oliver power On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:52 pm

Uglysquirrel wrote:
volkoff wrote: All walls are 2 x 6 blown in cellulose insulation.



A little off topic but this seems very unusual for modern construction. Fiberglass batts are typical, with (I'm thinking) loose cellulose I'd be concerned about settling and moisture build up within the compacted cellulose (if it is compacted). Beside's , thinking is they can install loose cellulose in a new house wall from the inside only if they first install the plastic vapor barrier, then cut a hole in the plastic.

Is my logic correct or is there some unknown to me assurance that some types of loose cellulose do not settle/compact?

Before I spent a lotta money on this house, I'd be checking for mold on the inside of the outside walls especially if there was no vapor barrier (???) , especially the north side.

All this heat pump and wall stuff sounds pretty strange......wonder if the basement wall has footings..... :o
They now have a blown in cellulose that sticks to wall, and studs. I believe it has some sort of glue in it (Kind of forget now). But yes, it gets sprayed on like foam, only at a fraction of the cost. Seen it used many times at new construction job sites lately. No plastic needed to hold cellulose.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
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Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

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Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:01 pm

not sure how boiler/furnace topics turn into "wonder if the basement walls have footings" I do not know how to respond to this other than- what the !@#$%
volkoff
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:02 pm

I went back & reread the original post,didn't find any thing about mold or foundation issues,his post is on an alternate heat (coal) which will make him warm in his house which the cool air heat currently does not do.He is looking for advise to further his decision on a coal burning system that will provide the desired comfort level he seeks.volkoff i'm with you on that !! :wacko:
windyhill4.2
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Other Heating: Oaktree OWB 600K

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: plumber On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:05 pm

As much a I love radiant, this is what I'd do if it were my house.
Have a professional heat loss calculation.
Have a properly sized hydrocoil installed on your air handler and go with the boiler. You will have plenty of heat if sized properly and a much higher level of comfort than regular scorched air. You will also have the option of tying in your existing water heater into the tank less on the boiler. The boiler will give you much more versatility than the furnace with more comfort.
Leisure Line makes a fine product, however you may be pushing the limits of the 110 and would need to go with the 220. I'm speculating on that get that heal loss done and let us know. My guess from the description in your original post is you're around 150,000 btu/H.
Oh, you want a masonry chiming if you can spring it.
plumber
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 350

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:22 pm

volkoff , I told you that the furnace could do your DHW,but i looked at the info again & don't see that as an option.I still think the LL AK220 with its dual burners is the way to go, 1 burner for the chilly months , 2 burners for the cold weather. Hot air furnace seems to be the logical choice $$ wise for your situation.
windyhill4.2
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Other Heating: Oaktree OWB 600K

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:50 am

volkoff wrote:not sure how boiler/furnace topics turn into "wonder if the basement walls have footings" I do not know how to respond to this other than- what the !@#$%



Just joking :) on basement footings, I now have learned that some new types of cellulose are sticky and don't eventually compact. Therefore no mold likely .

Guess I should shut my squirrel piehole before speculating though the ol' squirrel did learn something.

Back into hibernation for you, Ug.
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:18 pm

plumber wrote:As much a I love radiant, this is what I'd do if it were my house.
Have a professional heat loss calculation.
Have a properly sized hydrocoil installed on your air handler and go with the boiler. You will have plenty of heat if sized properly and a much higher level of comfort than regular scorched air. You will also have the option of tying in your existing water heater into the tank less on the boiler. The boiler will give you much more versatility than the furnace with more comfort.
Leisure Line makes a fine product, however you may be pushing the limits of the 110 and would need to go with the 220. I'm speculating on that get that heal loss done and let us know. My guess from the description in your original post is you're around 150,000 btu/H.
Oh, you want a masonry chiming if you can spring it.



One thing I have had people tell me is the furnaces really don't scorch the air like a typical furnace setup because of the way the coal trol works with the fan speed and feed rate. It is not a situation where the heat tells the fan to run, The fan switch is only there for a high limit and a enable for the fan. The coal trol controls the fan. Other AK owners please jump in here and either confirm or correct me.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:39 pm

Hello, well, still do not have a stove. I am 99% sure I am doing the LL ak-220 furnace. Dealer is saying to go power vent not chimney. There is a huge $$ savings in the power vent vs the chimney. I would like to hear opinions on a power vent. Also I am tying this into my existing heat pump duct work. I want to tie my existing thermostat into the coal furnace. I know LL has the coal-trol but I do not want another thermostat on my wall. Well my LL dealer is say "impossible to do" my heat pump guy is saying doable with another modual to communicate with the coal unit. Anybody know about this. I guess I was concerned when the LL installer came to look at my setup he was stumped because he has never seen a heat pump system that has two zones (2 electronic dampers). I guess my comfort lies with the heat pump installer and his experience with duct work and electronic damper control. I guess I was thinking the coal-trol is a simple electronic switch.
volkoff
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:29 pm

In your situation w/ 2 forced air zones, the Coal-trol may have to be left out...no worries though, many many tons of coal have been burned prior to a Coal-trol being around. ;)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:18 pm

The Coal Trol is a large part of the efficiency of the furnace. It controls the convection fan speed based on fuel usage/ fire size ( call for heat ) Maybe call Automaton Correct and see if they have some other ideas for your situation. There is almost always a solution to a problem.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:33 pm

We have 1st floor all open kitchen/living area with cathedral ceilings about 23 ft at peak. The 1st floor is 1000 sqft.


Just stick a Glenwood #8 in the middle of this room adding 100,000 btu of super efficient heat and switch on the ceiling fans and that will recover the heat deficit. Simple, cheap, over and out - done. Let the existing system just do it's thing as it will now be able to cope. Be aware my opinion is a minority around here so factor that in.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: pvolcko On: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:57 pm

The Coal-trol thermostat provides the "brains" for the system. You can operate the furnace on older idle timer and standard on-off control thermostats but you will have to piece together the system for it, in order to use your existing thermostat with the system.

The efficiency benefit of the Coal-trol comes from the fact is doesn't act in the way a typical on-off control thermostat does. Instead of turning the burning on to full blast when heat is called for and then down to idle when temperature is satisfied, the Coal-trol will home in on your precise heat needs and track throughout the day, providing a proportionally controlled supply of fuel into the fire that matches your heat demand.

It's a cruise control for coal stoves.

By utilizing this method the Coal-trol avoids large swings around setpoint that a typical on-off thermostat tends to produce with a coal fired stove or furnace, caused by the long time delay between fuel being added into the fire and the fire stoking up and buring, and then the delay in the fuel in the fire burning down once set back to idle when temperature is satisfied.

The control further aids in efficiency by speed controlling the convection blower(s) on the appliance, tracking with heat output of the stove/furnace. However, in central air ducting installations people typically find that the slower blower speeds are not enough to move air through the duct work. So people either use a limit switch to control the convection blowers or they opt to use a whole house blower in another appliance, either tying it in with the limit switch or using an optional set of dry contacts available on the Coal-trol so the Coal-trol can control when it runs.

Because all of this is controlled from the Coal-trol thermostat it isn't possible to run a Coal-trol system without our thermostat. At least not without a lot of hacking to tie in some custom control circuit to our control module, which is not something we recommend or support.

If you're wanting to run the AK furnace with your existing thermostat and it is a deal-breaker without that, you will have to order the furnace without controls and piece together a system that uses relays controlled from your existing thermostat and heating system. It will also have to provide for an idle timer that kicks in, in parallel with the stoker control line, to feed a small amount of fuel every minute or two. You will lose the efficiency benefits from the proportional fuel control and fan control the Coal-trol provides, but you will have the single thermostat and a great coal furnace.

Please, feel free to contact us to discuss this further. There may be other solutions after hashing through things a little bit over the phone. Our number is 315-299-3589. Please leave a message with your name and best contact number for during the day, if you get voicemail. We'll get back to you as soon as possible.
pvolcko
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:15 pm

pvolcko,
Thank you for jumping in. It is nice to see people like yourself listening to us common folk. I spoke to the HVAC guy who I am leaning towards to do the ductwok and system configuration. He is definitely using the Coal trol, so I think I am good. What started this whole thing of choosing a different installer than the dealer uses, was the fact that my existing system was new to him and he had never seen a two zone setup. I spoke to Matt at LL and he agrees that this is a good decision. As long as we are using the coal trol there will not be any issue with warranty or service. I know I am buying a great product so I need to be comfortable with who is doing the installation. If you have any info you would like to give please do so.
thanks again.
Nick
volkoff
 

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