new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:41 am

Hello, new guy here looking for some advice. Our house was built 7 yrs ago. We are about 2300-2500 sqft without future 1000 sqft finished basement. We have 1st floor all open kitchen/living area with cathedral ceilings about 23 ft at peak. The 1st floor is 1000 sqft. We have two large 5'x6' windows and a 7'x7' glass sliding patio door, and another 150 sqft of windows. All walls are 2 x 6 blown in cellulose insulation. Well the very efficient heat pump can not heat the house. It does very well as an AC unit in the summer but that is it. So, I want some damn heat in my house. I know I want hot water radiant for the first floor and I will tie into the duct work for the second floor. How do I do this?
1. Outdoor unit that burns coal and wood
2. Indoor unit in a separate "shed" coal and wood
3. indoor init that burns coal, wood pellets

I do not mind spending money on quality, if it is truly quality and not some marketing persons version of quality. I do not want to pay for bells and whistles that really have nothing to do with home heating. The basement will eventually be finished, so I don't want something that will be messy. Well just a few thoughts to get me started. Thanks in advance. Nick
volkoff
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:49 am

Hang on, you will get tons of info from this forum and you will be on your way. And welcome to the forum as well. :D
I will let the more experienced heat mechanics answer your questions and there will be several opinions battling back and forth to promote their "best" approach. Nevertheless, you will get answers here and no nonsense advice, you have come to the right place!
good luck and enjoy the ride.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:52 am

Welcome :) Your thinking is mighty fine I'd say, But what's this syht about wood?

Coal stoker boiler is the way to go. There are dual-fuel options too. Look at EFM for dual-fuel.
EFM used refurbed units can save a few dollars.
For a new model dual-fuel the Leisure Line WL 110 or it bigger brother AA 220 are hard to beat.

Let us know if a NON dual-fuel will work and then there is even more to see.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:22 am

At this point I am open to all suggestions. I just started looking into options. When is the best time to buy? I would guess spring/summer. Thanks for the very quick reply's. I look forward to hearing from everyone.
volkoff
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:11 am

Since your basement is not yet finished you can plan this all out so you create a boiler room with a coal bin based on ease of coal delivery and access to where you will build an all masonry chimney. :)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:35 am

McGiever wrote:Since your basement is not yet finished you can plan this all out so you create a boiler room with a coal bin based on ease of coal delivery and access to where you will build an all masonry chimney. :)


Wow - you are in a great position. Like McGiever said, you can start for scratch and do it right the first time. Me, personally, I would look at a coal boiler placed in an out building/shed. That way the dust of the coal burner is outside. To me that's the best of all worlds. Whatever, you've come to the right place for a variety of options and what not to do. Take care, Lisa
lowfog01
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Mark II & Mark I

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:27 am

As to boilers, don't forget to look at an AHS S-130 or an AHS S-260 Coal Guns, or the Axeman-Anderson 130 or 260.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:39 am

Welcome to the Forum! First thing, remember you did ask a coal forum, we might be a little bit biased. :)

Where are you located? Do you have natural gas go by your house? Location makes a big difference if you want to burn anthracite coal.

With your high ceiling and lots of glass you might not get enough baseboard to heat the place. Infloor radiant may be the best choice. It's time to do a heat loss study.


volkoff wrote: I want hot water radiant for the first floor and I will tie into the duct work for the second floor. How do I do this?


To have infloor radiant you'll staple up tubing from the basement, then insulate below it with foil at least 2 inches away from the tubes. Some use fiberglass with foil, others bubble wrap, some rigid board with foil. A water to air heat exchanger will make hot air for the upstairs.....but you might not need it.

I would never, ever, do an outdoor wood boiler because I do not have access to free wood. That is the only way they make financial sense. Even if you have free wood....yucccck. Plain & simple, they are time sucking stinkers. You will be loading them 3 or 4 times a day, and the smell of creosote will haunt you 24 hours a day.

A coal boiler in a insulated outside room can work but you will lose some BTU's. I have a coal boiler outside the house and the lost BTU's heat a garage. That can be tricky depending on local laws.

To set up in the basement for coal will take a chunk of floor space......maybe 12 by 18' for bin & boiler. With care it can be clean & efficient.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:06 am

Welcome,volkoff,so you found that heat pumps are for moderate climates as many others have.A boiler in your basement is the best choice as McGiever said.The Leisure Line AA220 is a dual burner unit,use 1 burner for summer DHW & chilly months,2 burners for cold weather.With a boiler,use a water to air heat exchanger in the duct work. You do NOT want to go with an outdoor wood boiler,and i say that because i am heating our 3 buildings & DHW with OWB since 2006 with one.We had free wood for a few years & lost that supply,we do not have the creosote & smell 24/7 as Freddy stated (He's biased :) ) BUT ,when you tend that outdoor unit & when it needs repaired,in the middle of the night,3*,30 mph winds,you WILL NOT be happy !! A unit in an outside well insulated shed is one possibility,but best place is in the basement. AGAIN DO NOT GO WITH AN OUTDOOR UNIT, UNLESS YOU ENJOY WORKING IN THE COLD & SNOW/ICE/WIND . If you live close to us you are welcome to stop by each morning for the next week & tend our unit at 4 A/M :)
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: titleist1 On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 am

Some thoughts....
Basement location for the stoker/boiler is best and the floor space it takes up doesn't have to be huge depending on the unit. 8' x 10' would be about the smallest footprint for a unit, piping, exhaust & walk around space. Walling off that area would still allow for the rest of the basement to be finished.

Coal storage is a big consideration. 1 ton takes up about 40 cuft. There are some good ideas & pictures in the coal bin thread for outside storage and delivering the coal to the inside. This can ease the concerns about coal dust inside.

Ashes will need to be taken out, so an outside entrance to the basement - preferably the boiler room, would make this easier.

Similar to the high efficiency oil/propane units i recommend having outside air piped to the combustion fan.

Plan on getting a manometer, CO monitors and temp gauges. Draft reading and temps are always asked for when someone has a question regarding the burn on their stoves/stokers.

Give a general location in your profile. Folks that have an install nearby may be willing to have you take a look at theirs to cherry pick some ideas.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:13 am

Good morning, Wow you guys are good. Thanks for the advice, it all sounds great. I updated my location (Loganton,PA). I would like to hear some cost $$$ comments on the indoor units with new chimney (I do not have a chimney). I think I could build some sort of outdoor coal storage with easy access to stove. I have a 5' x 6' window that could be removed and a dry access created under our deck. Also as far as room for the indoor unit, would my existing indoor unit be replaced with the coal unit? I am not sure what portion of my indoor unit is doing the air conditioning. I am going to start looking at the brands you all have mentioned. I know I have a Harman and Leisure dealer close to home so I will visit them this week. Thanks again keep the info coming.
volkoff
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: tsb On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:36 am

I googled coal in your area and came up with about 28 responses.
Check with your local plumbing supply house for recommended plumbers
that do coal installations. Keep you current system for AC and shoulder months.
I've been through your area on the motorcycle and I'm sure there are flat hatters
that would love to build you a nice chimney. Good luck and keep us informed.
We love pictures too.
tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:39 am

I will weigh back in and say since you are in the heart of coal country, there are many superb installs of ALL the kinds of furnaces/boilers within easy driving from you. There are some incredible setups for coal handling and ash removal. You should get some tremendous ideas as you are building from scratch. Type in some search ideas like coal bins, coal vacuum, pallet bags/skids, etc. and people luv to show off their setup. You will be impressed.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: volkoff On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:45 am

I just looked at Axeman Andersonand they are about 25 min from me.
volkoff
 

Re: new to forum - heat pumps suck in PA

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:48 am

volkoff wrote:I just looked at Axeman Andersonand they are about 25 min from me.


The convenience of that would sell me.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Visit Lehigh Anthracite