Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:19 pm

SMITTY wrote:Ran my Mark III like this for months - glass completely split in 2 - could move each piece individually back and forth completely independent from the other.

If your pulling draft in the firebox - even .01" - there's zero danger.


Those glass sections are supported at the top and bottom, I talking a triangular piece with no support. Could it drop out and leave a hole? Too large a hole will kill the draft. Also, if it drops out it might fall forward enough (since it is bulging ever so slightly to the outside) to go off the fire protected floor covering.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:34 pm

Mine is not supported top to bottom - they are intentionally left open for over-the-fire air. Only the sides are supported by the rope gasket.
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:48 pm

SMITTY wrote:Mine is not supported top to bottom - they are intentionally left open for over-the-fire air. Only the sides are supported by the rope gasket.


OK, that's means your situation is very different than a stove with a fully sealed (gasket all around) glass unit. One is designed to let in air, one is designed not to. If over the fire combustion (or cooling) air is designed into the stove you can't compare it to a stove that at a minimum, would blow fly ash into the room if the glass was not sealed. (else I wound not need to clean fly ash off the glass regularly).

An apples to oranges comparison one can't extrapolate from.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

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Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: freetown fred On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:39 pm

gg, why all the negativity? Either get a new glass in the door however you need to do it, or even slap a piece of duct tape over the crack. It'll melt itself in. That should cover your SAFETY. Do you have it straightened out yet? If you're any good with those torches, the glass will NOT break.
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:28 pm

freetown fred wrote:gg, why all the negativity? Either get a new glass in the door however you need to do it, or even slap a piece of duct tape over the crack. It'll melt itself in. That should cover your SAFETY. Do you have it straightened out yet? If you're any good with those torches, the glass will NOT break.


I hope that was intended humorous comic relief ;-)

Duct tape on a LL Pioneer? ROFLMAO, as does worrying about breaking the ceramic when the point of using a torch is to replace BROKEN ceramic

I don't think I've been negative at all but I'm unlikely to take "advice" from someone using a Hand Fed Coal Harman or Hand Fed Coal HITZER. when the designs are very different from my LL Pioneer regarding this topic.

I await a couple answers from Flyer5, he is great and knows what he is talking about.

Pretty much just will the current ceramic likely be safe until spring and what type of machining would likely be needed if I chose to fit a 2nd door.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:09 pm

Not sure how safe the ceramic is without seeing it. I have seen them where they look really bad and go for yrs. The way the doors were drilled was a fairly sloppy jig. After we took over a new jig was made and the hinge holes may be slightly different now but more consistent. There is no easy way to machine the new door to fit if it does not. The acetylene torch will not crack the door you can melt it though if not careful. They are cast steel or grey iron. Not cheaper pot iron. I usually heat cherry red around the bolt not worrying about the mounting clips melting they should be changed anyway. The bolts are 1/4 x 3/8"long. The trick is the cold vice grips shrink and harden the bolt while the cast door stays hot. Gently wiggling the bolt till it is turning easily. I have yet to break a bolt this way. We do recondition the doors in the off season, sandblast, remove bolts, and or re-drill and tap if necessary. New clips and bolts.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:36 pm

Flyer5 wrote: I usually heat cherry red around the bolt not worrying about the mounting clips melting they should be changed anyway. The bolts are 1/4 x 3/8"long. The trick is the cold vice grips shrink and harden the bolt while the cast door stays hot. Gently wiggling the bolt till it is turning easily. I have yet to break a bolt this way.


This is like, Sage info from the Man. I bet the other stove's factory 1-800 service dude is waiting with bated breath to tell you that level of info.....

Thanks Flyer!
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:52 pm

If you are worried about the triangular glass falling out, slap a little hi-temp silicone on it. And make sure to duplicate the bead on the other side of the glass. No one will know it doesn't belong except you.



Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
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Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:05 pm

Great new discussion. From a data perspective , the outer upper door gets to 390 F (infrared) when I'm at 32 feed rate with the Poke. If you assume the inside edge is ~50-60 higher in temp you can get a feeling for the environment high temp silicone would be subjected to if used to hold the glass in place. I don't consider the affect (if any) from the flame's infrared transmission. Nasty environment.

Worst case condition in an emergency I'd leave the cracked glass in place and take a 1/16" - 1/8" steel plate cut to fit over the entire (flat) outside of the door & maybe attach it by lying the plate in a bed of high temp silicone. May smell nasty during the first heat up post several hr cure. double protection . Inspect silicone often. Check glass condition by opening up door. Replace glass asap. Not sure how to remove high quality silicone (propane torch ? ) or what outside of door could look like after plate removal .
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:18 pm

Flyer5 wrote:Not sure how safe the ceramic is without seeing it. I have seen them where they look really bad and go for yrs. The way the doors were drilled was a fairly sloppy jig. After we took over a new jig was made and the hinge holes may be slightly different now but more consistent. There is no easy way to machine the new door to fit if it does not. The acetylene torch will not crack the door you can melt it though if not careful. They are cast steel or grey iron. Not cheaper pot iron. I usually heat cherry red around the bolt not worrying about the mounting clips melting they should be changed anyway. The bolts are 1/4 x 3/8"long. The trick is the cold vice grips shrink and harden the bolt while the cast door stays hot. Gently wiggling the bolt till it is turning easily. I have yet to break a bolt this way. We do recondition the doors in the off season, sandblast, remove bolts, and or re-drill and tap if necessary. New clips and bolts.


Thanks for the info, I'm going to just keep a good eye on it each day. Actually, I don't know when it happened (I was wrong earlier, this is the 5th season). I stopped routine "keep it nice and clean" last year after it was so frosted cleaning didn't change things much. Things seem pretty static.

Great info on the steel/iron! I was concerned about pot iron and cracking it. I'm not very worried about damaging the door iron with your information. A large soft flame should do the trick with the cold vise grips. Any problem with going gently on the heat (dull red) and cycling more than once if needed?

Now, checking when I bought the stove, it was the summer of 2009 which was before you bought the company so certainly was with the old jig. That seems to really rule out a 2nd door. I checked the hinge pins holes and the top one is in a position at least 1/4" off where the bottom hinge pin hole is side to side. I suspect matching a 2nd door to the pins welded on the stove would be pretty messy. It's not easy to drag holes! Welding on new hinge pin assemblies would not solve the problem of two different doors.

Can my dealer (out of state) order the glass mounting HW drop ship?

Once fixed, with anti-seize compound, I don't expect any future problems.

Thanks for all your assistance!!!
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: freetown fred On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:23 pm

You're quite welcome gg ;)
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:32 pm

Rick 386 wrote:If you are worried about the triangular glass falling out, slap a little hi-temp silicone on it. And make sure to duplicate the bead on the other side of the glass. No one will know it doesn't belong except you.


That's a thought, my IR thermometer had never had the window ever get anywhere near 500F.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:03 am

Uglysquirrel wrote:Great new discussion. From a data perspective , the outer upper door gets to 390 F (infrared) when I'm at 32 feed rate with the Poke.

Worst case condition in an emergency I'd leave the cracked glass in place and take a 1/16" - 1/8" steel plate cut to fit over the entire (flat) outside of the door & maybe attach it by lying the plate in a bed of high temp silicone.


This has proved very interesting. I've never had my Pioneer window ever get up even near the high temp silicone range - 500F (measured via IR).

I think I'll avoid anything that involves putting silicon on metal which might make getting stove paint to stick a real problem after the fix.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ceramic (glass) durability and safety

PostBy: gerry_g On: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:44 am

Flyer5 wrote:The way the doors were drilled was a fairly sloppy jig. After we took over a new jig was made and the hinge holes may be slightly different now but more consistent. There is no easy way to machine the new door to fit if it does not.


I took a good look at my door and hinge pins. As I noted in another post, I clearly have a stove made with the older Jig. The hing pin holes in the door are not consistent between the top and bottom.

It's very unlikely a 2nd door's pin holes would align with the same pins. The craftsmanship is superb but this particular part isn't very interchangeable without significant rework of a door with the stove present to fit it to. Something like cutting off one or both ears and brazing (ofter stronger than welding with castings) with the door in position on the stove and ears on the existing pins.

Precision placed holes for the pins would be nice but how many doors really break? My thought of a quick change door was only the result of it being in the middle of one of the coldest years in recent history. A very unusual situation. Fix the stuck bolts and I have quick change parts.

If I had my head on straight and anticipated the problem, I would have used anti-seize compound even though it wasn't mentioned in the old instructions.

I think this spring would be a good time to do a major take down. Spray the blower bolts (and others) with penetrating oil, let it soak in a few weeks and remove them, reinstalling with anti-seize compound. Basically prepare the stove for quick repairs. Maybe I'll have my Coal-Trol FW updated from the original why I'm at it.

I don't consider the cost of replacing the window every 3+ years very significant compared to the dramatic fuel cost savings.

The Pioneer's craftsmanship is superb, well worth the effort to maintain this treasure and appreciate it's beauty as well as its excellent room temperature control.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

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