A couple of Dumb questions

A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Lu47Dan On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:51 pm

First, I live in N/W Pa. just outside of Meadville.
I am going to add on to my house and build a new shop in the next couple of years. I am looking at a 20 X 30 addition to my house and a 40 X 50 shop.
Since I have not finished the plan for the shop, I was planning on adding a mechanical room to house a coal fired boiler along side my oil boiler. What I was thinking was to add a stoker unit large enough to heat both the shop and the house. Another option would be to place two stoker units in there. One for the house and one for the shop. As I do not use the shop everyday, I could set the thermostats for it to low heat, 55 degrees, then turn it up when I am going to be working in there.
Would one large boiler be better than two smaller units sized to each building?
I have half the house in radiant floor heat. Once the addition and the remodel get done, the rest of the house will have radiant heating installed also.
The shop will include a 18 X 30 room for my machine tools, this room I wish to keep at 68 degrees to 72 degrees during the heating season. The rest of the shop will be a fab bay, a vehicle maintenance bay, a separate room for a plasma table and a room to store my Chevelle in.
The oil fired boiler will be used as a back up unit for the shop.
Dan.
Lu47Dan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:03 pm

I think one big one. There are some heating pro's in here that will get down to the nitty gritty and really be able to give you relevant advice. Welcome to the forum! Someone will be along soon.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:56 pm

How far is the shop from the house? Radiant heat in the shop also?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy


Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Lu47Dan On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:17 pm

The shop will be about 60 feet from the house. Than another 40'ish feet to the mechanical room where the boiler will be.
The shop floor will be radiant floor through out with FCU's units hung as make up heat for when an overhead door is opened. I might add some fin tube in the machine area to help when it is very cold out. There will be a bunch of iron in there once I have acquired all the machines I would like to have.
Running the pex underground to the house will not be a problem, I have done a few in the past. One job was to run pex underground to a guard shack to replace the old gas fired heater with hot water heat, once the job was done and the system in place the guards bought us a couple of cases of beer. :) They did not have the noise from the old unit anymore. I think the old gas fired unit was installed in 1965 when the gate house was built.
I plan on running the pex inside of 6" PVC conduit.
Dan.
Lu47Dan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:28 pm

Lu47Dan, Welcome to the coal forum,you will be able to get your questions answered here,BUT be prepared to answer questions too. You will get bombarded with questions like how many sq.ft.etc.,sounds like a job for a BIG boiler.I am interested in the answer too,if 2 units,one could be utilized yr.round for DHW, if 1 BIG boiler will it run at idle for summer DHW,we shall find out soon when opinions start flying.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Lu47Dan On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:52 pm

Windy, thanks for the welcome.
The house is two stories, without the addition it is 1848sqft total floor space. That is the total of the floors that will be heated eventually. I will add another 600sqft of floor to be heated with the addition. The house is pretty well insulated, R-38+ in the attic R-13 in the walls upstairs. The weak point in the envelope is the downstairs walls as they are block. When the house was built the inside of the walls were furred out with 2 X 2's and then 1-1/2" styrofoam sheets were fitted between them. This was not the modern styrofoam but the old granular type. So I want to get the block walls foamed when I do the remodel.
The shop will be 40 X 50 X 12' so that is 2000sqft. The walls will be ICF, the roof will be 14" I-joists with as much fiberglass insulation in them as I can get. Then under the fiberglass will be 2" of sytrofoam insulation with a steel panel ceiling.
The whole inside will be sheeted with steel paneling.
The divider wall of the machine room / work bays will be ICF also.
If I can get the shop up this year, than I can install, the boiler in it if not I might buy a 20' container and make it into a temporary boiler room.
Dan.
Lu47Dan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:13 pm

The experts haven't answered yet,but you might want to check the manufacturers out on here, the Leisure Line AA220 boiler is a possibility , it has 2 burners meaning 1 burner can be shut down for summer time DHW & for the chilly months.I haven't switched to coal yet $$$ so i need to go out in the cold & feed our outdoor wood monster & then get some sleep,we will see what suggestions you get tomorrow.Good luck.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:41 am

There are a lot of units that will work for what you have planned. Those block walls should be more airtight than timer frame construction, and the fact that you already put hard foam on them makes a huge difference. I am not sure if it is even worth replacing that old foam. If you wanted to further insulate the downstairs, perhaps strapping perpendicular to the existing studs and adding a thin layer of polystyrene foam is worth considering. I think they also make foam panels now that you can screw into?

Anyway - the plan for your shop sounds great...the ICF walls will make a big difference in heat load. I saw your comment in another thread about a thermal break around and under radiant slabs, so it sounds like you have already done your home work on the right way to do radiant. The biggest source of heat loss will probably be any overhead doors. Keep the ground water away from your underground piping and the radiant slabs.

So far I haven't heard anything that makes me think your heat load will be anything special.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:50 am

It Depends!

Do you want to tend one or two appliances?
or:
What appliance(s) may be available and cheep vs what can you buy for Love or/and Money?
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Lu47Dan On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:06 am

Rob R. The foam board insulation in the downstairs will have to come out when I remodel that area, Right now the downstairs is the living room, kitchen and dining room. It will be gutted to the walls and turned into the a larger kitchen and dining room. The concrete floor will be torn out and a new one poured with pex in it for heat. One zone for the kitchen and one for the dining room.
The addition will be the living room, it will also have a bathroom in it, the floor will be radiant also. I am going to have a wood/coal stove in there for emergency heat also.
Once the addition is finished the outside of the house will be sided with vinyl, the areas of the walls that are exposed block will be Strapped and an 1-1/2" of foam board insulation added between them then on the areas that are framed will get a 3/4" of foam board insulation. Then the whole house will get wind barrier installed and the siding put over it.
Fuel prices are not going to go down anytime soon. :x So I would rather spend the money on insulation than wish I had.
Burning wood for the past 20 years has taught me that it is not the way to go. With the stove I have right now I burn 6 - 8 cord a year to heat the house. Burn 100 to 150 gallons of fuel oil to heat the existing shop on days I am working in there and my shop building is getting to the point it needs replaced.
With my height restriction here in this township I decided to stay at 12' eaves and not have to get a variance, that means the roof had to be a double "shed" style, outside it looks like a regular gable roof but inside it is open to the peak.
Sting, that is the rub here, not many coal boilers survived here. Coal stoves are around but not many boilers.
I have been looking at the different manufacturers sites to get an idea of what is available.
No big hurry right now as I am still in the research phase of this project.
Dan.
Lu47Dan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:29 am

What type coal boiler you leaning towards...
Hard or soft coal?
Hand fed or stoker?

Right now I am fond of Hard, but w/ the load you may be looking at I'd be leaning towards Soft.
:idea: After all you're in a pretty good soft coal region and it cost locally nearly 1/3 of what Hard does. :idea:

There was a stove/boiler dealer around you at Seagertown, and has a website.

ETA: Website gone, still listed at Keystoker's Dealer list.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Lu47Dan On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:47 pm

That is a good question, whether to run hard or soft coal. If I could find a soft coal stoker boiler that would handle the load I am looking at, I might go that way.
I have found these two dealers locally.
Country Hearths, at Seagertown, about 9 miles from me. By appointment only.
http://www.countryhearths.com/home
Warm Hearth & Home, at Pleasantville, about 39 miles away. I do not know their hours.
http://warmhomeandhearth.wordpress.com/
I will see what is on the market for a used one also.
Dan.
Lu47Dan
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Sears circulator air tight stove.
Other Heating: Crown 115,000 BTU oil fired boiler(house) Weil Mclain 150,000BTU oil fired boiler(Shop)

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: Berlin On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:28 pm

Lu47Dan wrote:That is a good question, whether to run hard or soft coal. If I could find a soft coal stoker boiler that would handle the load I am looking at, I might go that way.
I have found these two dealers locally.
Country Hearths, at Seagertown, about 9 miles from me. By appointment only.
http://www.countryhearths.com/home
Warm Hearth & Home, at Pleasantville, about 39 miles away. I do not know their hours.
http://warmhomeandhearth.wordpress.com/
I will see what is on the market for a used one also.
Dan.


Find a boiler (anthracite boiler, it doesn't matter) sell the stoker if it came w/ one and then stick a will-burt or other clinkering type stoker in the base. Or, with a little modification, some anthracite stokers work just fine w/ bituminous coal. I've got a setup just like that running for my folks in upstate NY that's saving more money and making less ash than anthracite - even w/ increased transportation costs. If you decide to go w/ bit coal in any configuration, be sure to pm me so that I can help you with your setup.

I've got a few posts w/ pics detailing what I did to an old GJ boiler now fit w/ an allen stoker: Pictures Of Your Boiler
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:51 pm

For a soft coal stoker boiler it will definitely be a used one, none are made any longer.

It takes some scouring but an occasional Iron Fireman does turn up now and then on Craig's List or at an auction.

ETA: Look below, they even show up on here. :roll:
Last edited by McGiever on Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: A couple of Dumb questions

PostBy: mdhorvath On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:11 pm

mdhorvath
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S500 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Pea Anthracite