Coal-Trol issue or something else?

Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Ryckee On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:36 pm

I can't believe its almost 2 years to the day since my last issue / post. Coal-Trol not working

Thoughts on whether I have a Coal-Trol issue or something else? Here's the deal. Everything was working fantastic for last two years but a couple weeks ago my Co2 detector started going off randomly. Obviously I was concerned but thought it was just related to the major fluctuation in temp outside going from 10 degrees one day and up to upper 50's the next on and off for a couple weeks ... thinking I was not getting enough draft. I had changed things from last year in how my stove was hooked up, one of which was eliminating my draft inducer, so thought that was it. So I did what made sense and began the fun process of putting it back in. To my surprise / lessons learned, when I took the exhaust pipe apart I found it was clogged with ash ... knowning that was the culprit. So I put the draft inducer back in anyway but now it seems like I am getting too much draft because my house is not getting up to the set temp on the Coal-Trol. I have the draft inducer turned off and my LL Hyfire II has been constantly running at mid- to high flame since I started it back up. When I close the door and reopen, I can see the ash dust falling off from the top immediately go away / sucked away, as opposed to before I cleaned out the exhaust it would fly out all over. I do like the fact that the ashes do not come out but not at the cost of not getting heat more. What is really stange is that although the burners are constantly running, in that they never slow down the flame like when at temp mode, yet it seems like I am burning less coal now. I typically have to refill the hopper every 2 days when its 20 below which its been here for weeks, yet I didn't have to fill it for the last 4 days. And I can physically feel the heat coming out of the front heat exchanger openings is only warm and not hot. Before cleaning it out, I could not hold my hand in front of the air for more than a couple seconds, but now I can hold my hand there all day. I do not have a damper on my pipes / chimney, so was wondering if that would be the way to reduce the draft. I do have a 40+ foot chimney, which someone previously told me should be getting really good draft ... when I first installed the Hyfire and was concerned with getting enough for no concerns with Co2 ... in my learning year.

Sorry for the long story but here is Chapter 2. One other change I made was relocating my Coal-Trol T2-stat to my 2nd fl living room, 3rd floor above basement where Hyfire is. When I did this, it seems like my T2-stat got messed up because it was exactly 10 degrees less than the actual room temp, as I installed it right next to my HVAC t-stat. I didnt think much of it, so I would just adjust the temp to be 10 degrees less than what I wanted. I moved the T2-stat back to the basement on the original Cat 5 cable and it is still 10 degrees less than actual. So I tried changing the defaults of the MIN feed rate from 6 to 30 and set the temp to 70 degrees = 80 degrees actual. I did this at 8am this morning. It's now 13 hours later and its only showing 56 degrees on the T2-stat = 66 degrees actual, which is what the temp is on my HVAC t-stat upstairs.

Do I have a too much draft issue or a T2-stat control issue or a Coal-Trol module issue or what.

Bottom line, in short, I am really looking for someone to come out and take a look at my setup and give me a quote to check things out and proposal on setting things up right ... by someone that knows how to do things right.

If you are reading this far, i hope you enjoyed my story and can provide some advice.

Regards,
Ryckee
Ryckee
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Hyfire II

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Ryckee On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:51 pm

I forgot to include a pic of my burners on how they have been running constantly for the last 4 days ... as far as I can tell without slowing down, yet I've only burned half the amount of coal as I would normally but only getting < 50% of the heat as before. See attached picture.jpg
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Ryckee
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Hyfire II

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: pvolcko On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:16 am

When you cleaned out the flue pipe, did you also clean out the grates? The holes will often get filled up and need to be cleared out in order to get proper coal bed air flow. Also, on many stoves there are baffles up top in the burn chamber and/or C-channels on the back wall of the chamber which carry vent gasses out to the flue. Make sure those are both cleared of fly ash too.

Next, what is your MAX value set at. On LL stoves it should usually be set between 40 and 50. Sometimes it's outside that range for optimium, but 45-46 is a safe starting point.

By increasing the MIN value you increased the feed rate while at idle (FR 0). If you're not at setpoint that should not be where FR is at, though. What is your FR screen saying?

Lastly, it is possible, with the very cold days we've been having lately, that your chimney is over performing and pulling a lot of hot air out of the burn chamber. A damper can be helpful in exceedingly bad cases, but usually a barometric damper is all that's needed. This will automatically open and close as needed to supply excess chimney draft air from the room, instead of pulling it out of the stove. Your stove should have had one included when you purchased it, I believe.

AS to the bad temp reading on the coal-trol. There is a way to calibrate it, but it's limit is about 10 degrees of calibration adjustment, so you may well be over limit to get it right. The fact it is that far out of whack is not right. I'd suggest you call our shop at 315-299-3589 to discuss your options. We have a three year warranty on our product. If it is over that period then it probably makes sense to do a repair as opposed to buying a replacement thermostat.

The calibration is done by pressing and holding the MENU button for several seconds, until it reads out a set of alternating screens that say "A ###F" and "R ###F". R is the raw temperature reading, unadjusted. The A value is the adjusted one. Use the UP and DOWN buttons to apply adjustment. You may find you need to use the DOWN button to increase the adjusted value up. I know, it's backwards. There's a logical reason, but that's a story for another time. :)

Once you're adjusted it, tap menu a few times to exit the advanced menu and get back to the round robin display.
pvolcko
 

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: WNY On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:44 am

Do you have Baro Damper and a draft gauge to actually tell you what the draft is on the stove. that is the ONLY way to know what it's doing. Just because it sucks ash into the stove when you open the door, tells you have some draft, but maybe not enough? Hard to say with out measuring it directly.

As Paul from CoalTrol said, you can calibrate the temp setting a bit thru the menu, if you have another digital thermometer and you know for sure it's off. Mine was about 2-3 degree off compared to other thermostat and a digit thermometer that I have.

Also, make sure your thermostat has nothing around and mounted on an inside wall, there is a small hole on the top that cannot be blocked so it can sense temp and air flow thru it.

It just sounds like you need some adjustments or cleaning of the stove.

How tall is your chimney? Outside chimney? PIpe or block type?
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: pvolcko On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:37 am

Also, make sure your thermostat has nothing around and mounted on an inside wall, there is a small hole on the top that cannot be blocked so it can sense temp and air flow thru it.


Very good point. IT was mentioned that this thermostat had been moved around. If you have it sitting on something (shelf, couch back, etc.) where it is not vertically oriented (like it would be on a wall mount), and if either of those two holes are blocked it will result in it possibly building up heat inside and not getting a clear picture of what the room air and stove response is. This will screw dramatically with expected stove behavior.
pvolcko
 

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Ryckee On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:37 pm

You guys are fantastic! Thank you so much. I check it all out and let you know.
Ryckee
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Hyfire II

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: WNY On: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:47 pm

I remember that issue with mine and Paul discussing it quite a while ago. I had a Digital Thermostat sitting on to of mine and it was always off a few degrees, now I know why. It was blocking the the hole. LOL.

Mine was still a couple degrees off, but thru the menu and calibration, it's right on with my digital thermometer and my other thermostat.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Ryckee On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:03 pm

Ok so one/many issues addressed ... now seemed to have caused another issue, of course.

I installed a baro damper (no I havn't calibrated it with a manometer yet bc I havnt bought one yet), but adjusted it near 4/5 of full open, which seemed to work great in getting heat I expected. I also calibrated my TS2-stat right on with HVAC T-stat, and I also increated the MAX up to like 70. All was perfect until later that night the CO2 detector went off. So I closed down the baro to about 3/4 of full open, which seems to be ok ... no CO2 detector alarms but still getting good heat. EXCEPT now when the Hyfire II went in idle, it actually burned out lastnight. After getting it started again and back up to temp, I checked it this AM when house was at temp and it was at idle and it was barely burning at all, so I increased the MIN to 12 (from 6), bumped the TS2-stat temp up to get her going again and closed the baro down a little more.

So it is a matter of just getting the proper balance between the high heat and idle draft set on the baro?
Ryckee
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Hyfire II

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:10 pm

The baro probably cut the draft off so much that there's no flow at idle, which snuffed the fire. You definitely need a manometer to find out for sure.

I would think that you could adjust the idle frequency up a bit to compensate for the time being .. ??
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: WNY On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:12 pm

YOU NEED A draft gauge to Set up your baro Correctly. You can't guess on the draft. Leaving it open that far is probably reducing the draft too much on your stove and that's why your CO detectors went off. You cannot calibrate it correctly without a gauge.

And you need to set it on a FULL burn. It should be closed (or almost closed) at idle and may a little bit open to 1/4-1/2 open at full burn depending on your chimney,etc

Whats your MIN Settings? the MAX is only for a FULL Burn, you may have to increase your MIN to 8 or 10 to keep a good draft on your chimney.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:17 pm

Every new coal burning appliance should come with a carbon monoxide detector AND a manometer, or at least the option to buy one at time of purchase. To burn coal without these two devices is reckless, dangerous and just plain ill advised.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:08 pm

Ryckee wrote:Ok so one/many issues addressed ... now seemed to have caused another issue, of course.

I installed a baro damper (no I havn't calibrated it with a manometer yet bc I havnt bought one yet), but adjusted it near 4/5 of full open, which seemed to work great in getting heat I expected. I also calibrated my TS2-stat right on with HVAC T-stat, and I also increated the MAX up to like 70. All was perfect until later that night the CO2 detector went off. So I closed down the baro to about 3/4 of full open, which seems to be ok ... no CO2 detector alarms but still getting good heat. EXCEPT now when the Hyfire II went in idle, it actually burned out lastnight. After getting it started again and back up to temp, I checked it this AM when house was at temp and it was at idle and it was barely burning at all, so I increased the MIN to 12 (from 6), bumped the TS2-stat temp up to get her going again and closed the baro down a little more.

So it is a matter of just getting the proper balance between the high heat and idle draft set on the baro?





You are misunderstanding the function of a baro. If it is a fieldcontrols type with a calibrated scale that makes things easier. If it has no scale you need a manometer its that straight forward. You do not adjust a baro just so it opens. You adjust a baro so it opens because draft is above a certain amount -.04 is a typical setting. A baro is designed to limit and regulate draft that's it. It should not be a guessing game. It can be your last. I don't mean to sound harsh but it is that serious.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:12 pm

A better way to explain it if draft is at neg -.04 the Baro should start to open. If the draft above the baro goes to -.05 or more negative the baro will open more. If the drafts drops toward zero say a negative -.03 or -.02 the baro will close and will stay closed till negative draft increases.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:04 pm

All this post written -warranty advice from two on-line American Companies for free and with a few hours of asking the questions.

Simply Amazing.
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: Coal-Trol issue or something else?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:19 pm

I'll second that!
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace