omg now what am i going to do?

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:57 am

How'd it overheat?
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:59 am

GaryFerg wrote:Ok this is what was explained to me . I lost all water because boiler overheated. The water in the pipe was gone so atmospheric pressure collapsed the pipe because of the vacuum much like when you heat a tin can and it collapses. I need to add a water supply to my boiler to prevent this and also a dump zone.



Those are standard features typically built in during every initial install...oh well. :roll:

So, how now to replace underground piping???
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:02 am

:shock: I think you better get another opinion... You could put neg 5 atmospheres of pressure on that pipe and not collapse it. You can drive over it for gods sake. Pipe froze and burst. No supply water allowed water to boil off. Water leaked out of pipe in ditch and thawed any other frozen pipes. Soon steam flowed through the burst pipe and softened it enough to collapse pipe. Maybe....maybe not," it depends"( used without license )
waldo lemieux
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:25 am

waldo lemieux wrote::shock: I think you better get another opinion... You could put neg 5 atmospheres of pressure on that pipe and not collapse it. You can drive over it for gods sake. Pipe froze and burst. No supply water allowed water to boil off. Water leaked out of pipe in ditch and thawed any other frozen pipes. Soon steam flowed through the burst pipe and softened it enough to collapse pipe. Maybe....maybe not," it depends"( used without license )


No I am sure it didn't freeze it wasn't cold enough that day and I was only away for about four hours. it overheated for sure the plate that restricts the air on the blower came off and pushed it right up to the top. The frost here is only a few inches deep I know because I dug up the pipe.
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:27 am

GaryFerg wrote:Ok this is what was explained to me . I lost all water because boiler overheated. The water in the pipe was gone so atmospheric pressure collapsed the pipe because of the vacuum much like when you heat a tin can and it collapses. I need to add a water supply to my boiler to prevent this and also a dump zone.


I take it you had a furnace man come take a look? Wise move. Onsite he can see and diagnose the system as a whole, where we can only do our best with an interpretation as you try to best answer our questions ;)

Did you have O2 barrier hydronic pex? Please be certain to use that anywhere you replace any pex.

Something else to consider. Unless your house was too hot and not calling for heat (?) an overheated boiler can be caused by too small main loop lines.

I'm curious if he told you what size pipe for the loop your boiler was designed for? Although I mostly work with 1.25", that is a generalization. Some boilers are designed for 1", which would then be best. Mostly depends on the BTUs of your boiler. Did you tell us your boiler's BTUs?

Your diagnosis will surely help prevent an overheat situation, but it is best to get your system in balance, too. Do you have automatic draft controls? How do you adjust/control your fire rate?

If you are tired of answering Q's, just say so ;)

And don't let the debates within our responses throw you off. Even when spirited, responsible debate often helps us all learn and get better at diagnosing and helping others.

Like many on here, I received great info and advice when selecting coal and making adjustments to my hand fired soft coal hot air furnace. We all try to give back and return the good will first shown to us.

I went onsite to help a friend who reported, "I had a furnace guy here, but nobody knows about hard coal boilers." Things were more involved than I got from talking on the phone. Had to calibrate separate aquastats, found a worn and intermittent shaker mechanism, found a shaker low temp solenoid with only one strand of wire left (enough to test okay with meter, but not enough to carry the load needed to operate solenoid) , and a bad auto fill water valve.

He had been tinkering and getting it to be 'OK' but not reliable for some time. He knew all the parts and how to tinker with most, but we had to look at the system as a whole and operate it for a couple of hours to find these problems.

We all know some, but don't know it all. That's what is good about sharing discussions and debates ;)
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous
Coal Size/Type: Kittanning Seam, Stove size
Stove/Furnace Make: old handfired bituminous

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:35 am

Low water cut off is needed as well as an open on rise aqua stat, clamp on design would work and be easy to wire.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:02 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
GaryFerg wrote:Ok this is what was explained to me . I lost all water because boiler overheated. The water in the pipe was gone so atmospheric pressure collapsed the pipe because of the vacuum much like when you heat a tin can and it collapses. I need to add a water supply to my boiler to prevent this and also a dump zone.


I take it you had a furnace man come take a look? Wise move. Onsite he can see and diagnose the system as a whole, where we can only do our best with an interpretation as you try to best answer our questions ;)

Did you have O2 barrier hydronic pex? Please be certain to use that anywhere you replace any pex.

Something else to consider. Unless your house was too hot and not calling for heat (?) an overheated boiler can be caused by too small main loop lines.

I'm curious if he told you what size pipe for the loop your boiler was designed for? Although I mostly work with 1.25", that is a generalization. Some boilers are designed for 1", which would then be best. Mostly depends on the BTUs of your boiler. Did you tell us your boiler's BTUs?

Your diagnosis will surely help prevent an overheat situation, but it is best to get your system in balance, too. Do you have automatic draft controls? How do you adjust/control your fire rate?
No I didn't have anyone look at it I just talked to someone I know who does this kind of thing. Anything that was and is to be done on my setup is mine alone to take the blame. I have ordered o2 barrier pipe so when that comes I will temp hook it up till spring. Its all 1 inch don't know if that right but it worked okay before. The top hole is 2 inch and I reduced it down to inch. I haven't seen anything but 1 inch pex for this. The boiler is a energyking I don't remember what the BTUs are and I see they don't offer boilers anymore. It overheated mostly because that plate came off that restricts the amount of air through the fan. I have had the boiler get hot before 240 or so but mostly because of a power outage so it wasn't circulating through the pex. I am going to hook up a dump zone this time again maybe two. I bought a hanging heater for the shed so I will use that as well as the biggest zone in the house to dump the heat off. I am thinking that now that I will have o2 barrier pex maybe I will eliminate the heat exchanger between boilers that will take care of a water feeder too.
If you are tired of answering Q's, just say so ;)

And don't let the debates within our responses throw you off. Even when spirited, responsible debate often helps us all learn and get better at diagnosing and helping others.

Like many on here, I received great info and advice when selecting coal and making adjustments to my hand fired soft coal hot air furnace. We all try to give back and return the good will first shown to us.

I went onsite to help a friend who reported, "I had a furnace guy here, but nobody knows about hard coal boilers." Things were more involved than I got from talking on the phone. Had to calibrate separate aquastats, found a worn and intermittent shaker mechanism, found a shaker low temp solenoid with only one strand of wire left (enough to test okay with meter, but not enough to carry the load needed to operate solenoid) , and a bad auto fill water valve.

He had been tinkering and getting it to be 'OK' but not reliable for some time. He knew all the parts and how to tinker with most, but we had to look at the system as a whole and operate it for a couple of hours to find these problems.

We all know some, but don't know it all. That's what is good about sharing discussions and debates ;)
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:07 pm

No I didn't have anyone look at it I just talked to someone I know who does this kind of thing. Anything that was and is to be done on my setup is mine alone to take the blame. I have ordered o2 barrier pipe so when that comes I will temp hook it up till spring. Its all 1 inch don't know if that right but it worked okay before. The top hole is 2 inch and I reduced it down to inch. I haven't seen anything but 1 inch pex for this. The boiler is a energyking I don't remember what the BTUs are and I see they don't offer boilers anymore. It overheated mostly because that plate came off that restricts the amount of air through the fan. I have had the boiler get hot before 240 or so but mostly because of a power outage so it wasn't circulating through the pex. I am going to hook up a dump zone this time again maybe two. I bought a hanging heater for the shed so I will use that as well as the biggest zone in the house to dump the heat off. I am thinking that now that I will have o2 barrier pex maybe I will eliminate the heat exchanger between boilers that will take care of a water feeder too. I have a barodamper in place and the firing to some extent is controlled by the fan but also there is a manual air adjustment at the bottom.
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: kstills On: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:23 am

GaryFerg wrote:No I didn't have anyone look at it I just talked to someone I know who does this kind of thing. Anything that was and is to be done on my setup is mine alone to take the blame. I have ordered o2 barrier pipe so when that comes I will temp hook it up till spring. Its all 1 inch don't know if that right but it worked okay before. The top hole is 2 inch and I reduced it down to inch. I haven't seen anything but 1 inch pex for this. The boiler is a energyking I don't remember what the BTUs are and I see they don't offer boilers anymore. It overheated mostly because that plate came off that restricts the amount of air through the fan. I have had the boiler get hot before 240 or so but mostly because of a power outage so it wasn't circulating through the pex. I am going to hook up a dump zone this time again maybe two. I bought a hanging heater for the shed so I will use that as well as the biggest zone in the house to dump the heat off. I am thinking that now that I will have o2 barrier pex maybe I will eliminate the heat exchanger between boilers that will take care of a water feeder too. I have a barodamper in place and the firing to some extent is controlled by the fan but also there is a manual air adjustment at the bottom.


Just a suggestion on dump zones, if you aren't using it for DHW in the summer, make your house the dump zone.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:56 am

I don't have my chart nearby so did a Google to find this one instead. http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Extranet/Files/CDAM/CDAM_Manual_7thEd_0711_Ch15.aspx?sc_lang=en

Notice the difference in BTUs, velocity, and head for different pipe sizes. Everything from pipe to elevation, to baseboard, radiators, heat exchangers and other boilers all add resistance to a system. Be careful you don't exceed the limits.

As an example, reducing a 2" pipe to a 1" pipe reduces your btu carrying capacity from a max of 520k down to 140k. It doesn't seem like it would be that drastic the first time you look at it and you may not need that btu capacity, just be aware of the 380k btu difference when figuring out what you need.

Did you say you had another boiler in the system? Is it connected in series or parallel?

What pump are you using? Any pumps for the zones?

Maybe you can find a model number on the boiler?

A trick if you are starting to overheat the boiler...throw a little ashes on top of fire to reduce the burn rate for a cooler fire.
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous
Coal Size/Type: Kittanning Seam, Stove size
Stove/Furnace Make: old handfired bituminous

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:53 am

this is a pdf of the owners manual. as I said before this boiler goes through a heat exchanger than that is circulated through the other boiler I don't know if that is parallel or series. I run about 30 feet .I am not a plumber so I am learning as I go. I did it myself so there may be alot wrong but it has been running now for4 or 5 years. I would like to switch to a keystocker or something so I dont have to feed it so much but that is another story.
Attachments
energy king.PDF
(2.09 MiB) Downloaded 2 times
Select:BBcode: [nepafile=48900]energy king.PDF[/nepafile]
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:55 am

kstills wrote:
GaryFerg wrote:No I didn't have anyone look at it I just talked to someone I know who does this kind of thing. Anything that was and is to be done on my setup is mine alone to take the blame. I have ordered o2 barrier pipe so when that comes I will temp hook it up till spring. Its all 1 inch don't know if that right but it worked okay before. The top hole is 2 inch and I reduced it down to inch. I haven't seen anything but 1 inch pex for this. The boiler is a energyking I don't remember what the BTUs are and I see they don't offer boilers anymore. It overheated mostly because that plate came off that restricts the amount of air through the fan. I have had the boiler get hot before 240 or so but mostly because of a power outage so it wasn't circulating through the pex. I am going to hook up a dump zone this time again maybe two. I bought a hanging heater for the shed so I will use that as well as the biggest zone in the house to dump the heat off. I am thinking that now that I will have o2 barrier pex maybe I will eliminate the heat exchanger between boilers that will take care of a water feeder too. I have a barodamper in place and the firing to some extent is controlled by the fan but also there is a manual air adjustment at the bottom.


Just a suggestion on dump zones, if you aren't using it for DHW in the summer, make your house the dump zone.



I was trying to figure out how to make all the zones come on for a dump zone. I guess some kind of relay?
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:14 pm

Add the strap-on Aquastat L6006c and wire it through the N.O. switch contacts and run 24 volt wires to parallel w/ the TT of the zone(s) you want to use for your dump. Set aquastat to close @ 205* and trigger to dump.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:15 pm

McGiever wrote:Add the strap-on Aquastat L6006c and wire it through the N.O. switch contacts and run 24 volt wires to parallel w/ the TT of the zone(s) you want to use for your dump. Set aquastat to close @ 205* and trigger to dump.


Very precise advice. I'd add that once you install the new aquastat, adjust it to match your main temp gauge.

It's not unusual to have a little difference at different spots.
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous
Coal Size/Type: Kittanning Seam, Stove size
Stove/Furnace Make: old handfired bituminous

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:06 pm

yeah I already have a strap on aquastat wired but have only had it running one zone. Activating the whole house would be a better dump of the heat. Another question I just got a heater for the shed one of those radiators with the fan. Do I have to wire a circulator or can I just use induction and a thermostatically controlled fan to regulate it?
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Visit Lehigh Anthracite